Quick ethics question

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Please, no wise cracks...

You are 7 months from vesting for retirement with your current company.

Your location is being closed and you have your layoff date which falls prior to you vesting.

You have a job offer (accepted) from a competing company to start in six weeks.

Upper management suddenly realizes you were the only one working on a project to save them $4-8M per year and no one else knows the project. They now want to talk to you about staying for many years to come.

This is not for me, but it is for a very close friend whose birthday I know but do not share.

[Seahawk]

Talk to management about the offer to stay. No dilemma.

[Moses]

If the retirement value is big, you accept the extension with a guaranteed contract of employment that extends beyond vesting.

You tell the new employer that you are sorry, but the old employer made a sweeter deal.

It's business, man. Take care of yourself.

[RPKESQ]

Right, nobody will pay your bills but you. Make sure you get written offers and have a binding contract! Best of luck!

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

This is really just freaking him out because he had given his word to the new company. But yep, he'd have to move to a new location with the old company and who knows if they will back out of the deal once the project is finished. It will take only about two to three months to complete, at most. He could be hung out to dry...

[Drago]

Since his acceptance was verbal only I'd probably go with the vesting, provided you could get some sort of contract stating that you will be vested before layoff.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Drago
... provided you could get some sort of contract stating that you will be vested before layoff.

That would be an absolute MUST.

Is the retirement value significant?

[wrecktech]

Originally posted by Moses
It's business, man. Take care of yourself.

This has to be the only answer because.

Originally posted by RPKESQ
Right, nobody will pay your bills but you.

Good answers

[t951]

The company always does whatever is best for itself, why shouldn't you.

NEVER think of the company first (unless you are the owner). Do what is right by you.

[Moses]

Originally posted by t951

NEVER think of the company first (unless you are the owner).

Or if you work for me.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Moses
If the retirement value is big, you accept the extension with a guaranteed contract of employment that extends beyond vesting.

You tell the new employer that you are sorry, but the old employer made a sweeter deal.

It's business, man. Take care of yourself.

Totally agree but GET IT IN WRITING! This is his retirement.

My old company let 20% of us go three weeks after 9/11. Tried to screw us out of our pension as most of us were two months short of having the fifth year (vesting year) at the place. Found out that with non hourly employees the we had only to do 1500 hours of work in a year to be vested for the year. Advised about 20 of us who were sweating about it.

Now the company hates me because I cost them hundreds of thousands in retirement for 20 people. Sorry but I could care less and they owed us the retirement and we worked for it.

Joe A

[legion]

My take:

If circumstances changed for the company, they would have no problem rescinding their offer to your friend.

And I concur, he should get his offer from his nearly-former employer in writing, and get a signed contract before he starts working. A real pension is a tough thing to walk away from; I just vested a year ago with my employer.

[Milu]

Get a large lump sum payment from the old company up-front before he start's.

If your friend's presence is so important they'll pay it. It may also stop them from reneging on the deal later and terminating him. "Put not your trust in Princes!"

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Guys,

Thanks!!! Lots of good advice! He is going back to his boss today to make a presentation to include a demand for a pay raise and written guarantee for vesting. You'd think what would work out for the company to be worth up to $20M over product life would be worth paying him for his time and energy.

And yes, the retirement income is significant enough to worry about and includes medical benefits after 65.

Moses,

You would not have lost track of "valuable" personnel and told them you were about to lay them off and to go search for a new job...

Thanks, again, to all!!

Joe,

Interesting!! Something worth checking on!

[Z-man]

My take -
It seems the guy already has one foot out the door - the company was giving him his retirement, and he was looking for another job. I don't believe it's ever good to take a 'counter offer' from the company you are planning to leave - that's only a stop-gap until either the employee or employer decides to cut the relationship.

If I were in his shoes, this is what I'd do:

1. Find out from the present company what it would take to bridge his time so he can be vested for retirement. If the company won't do anything for him, then he should leave - their unwillingness to help have him vested in only an indication of what it to come for the employee in the future.

2. Find out if company B can wait a little while, given #1. If they are willing to wait 1-3 months, then that would be an indication that company B is willing to help you out, and would be the better company to go with.

-Z.

[Rot 911]

I think he has an obligation to go to the company he accepted the job from and let them know he is now not taking the job. Don't leave them hanging.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Interesting, looks like they are a slab of meat to the old company. It just wants to save $$$ and is not really willing to work with the person. He is even MORE HAPPY to go to the new company and let someone else learn his job.

I wonder if the old company will even assign anyone to learn the position and make the necessary changes to save the money.

Thanks yall!!! Everyone's input is/was greatly appreciated!!!

[Moneyguy1]

If retirement is a long way away, vesting does not seem to be as important. Take it from me; it IS important. Nothing like a guaranteed bit 'o income when the time comes!!

There will always be other opportunities for a talented and ambitious individual AFTER the vesting has been secured.

[tabs]

Those measley few dollars every month sure do help. The guy put his time in and is only a few months away...I look at it like the old company is stealing from him.

I HAVE NO LOYALTY TO A COMPANY, as they have no loyalty to you. If a comapny will give half a days pay to their employees to go to my funeral and lower the company flag to half mast then I would show them some loyalty. Until then Baby your on your own.

One of my Daddys 85 year old Buddies worked 20 years for Robert Shaw. One day he found out his pension was going to be $200 a month. Needless to say he soon found himself another job that had decent pension benfits. He thought about telling them to shove it, as they might need it more than he does. But he decided to keep it, and over the years has amounted to $40K or $50K. .

[ChrisBennet]

If I give my word it doesn't matter if it's in writing. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but jeesh, my word is my word - it might as well be a written contract. It doesn't matter what the other party is going to do, whether they intend to screw me over, etc. My ethics have nothing to do with their ethics.

This whole "if it's not in writing" stuff is right up there with "it's OK if you don't get caught" IMO.

Frankly, in your friend's situation, I only see an ethical dilemma if he has sketchy "ethics". Otherwise, it's cut and dried.

This is how I handle situations where I've agreed to something that I (now) don't want to do:
I simply ask the party that I had the agreement with if I can be released from the agreement. I explain that I will; of course, fulfill my agreement if they decline to release me.

"Gee Bob, I know I promised to help you move but the Swedish Bikini Team has offered to hand wash and breast dry my car while wearing nothing but tan lines on your moving day. If you really need me I'm there man but if you don't...."


-Chris