you want much of the east coast under water? You think that might have some economic ramifications?

New topic - why can't libeals debate without stooping to name calling?

Huh?

daeep:

There is enough name. calling and insults from the "right" to swing the balance over past equilibrium. All you have to do is read the posts from some of our august group with an objective and dispassionate mind.

Is that possible?

Libeals are the worst of the worst, next to conervatives.

Science probably isn't big in your personal circles, either.

The likelihood is that the permian extinction was triggered by global warming of a few degrees celcius. That caused a chain reaction resulting in an up to +10 degree change in temperature, wiping out approximately 95% of life on earth. Of course, if people don't believe the earth is round, or over 6,000 years old, then scientific theories about what happened 250 million years ago won't mean much.

Same with math. Conservatives are apparently happy to burden their children with massive debt... and not worry much about that, either.

You are confusing the "what if" of global warming with the "when will" SoCal shake into dust:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=scienceNews&storyid=2006-06-21T173055Z_01_L21522318_RTRUKOC_0_US-SCIENCE-EARTHQUAKE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

LONDON (Reuters) - The southern end of the San Andreas fault near Los Angeles, which has been still for more than two centuries, is under immense stress and could produce a massive earthquake at any moment, a scientist said on Wednesday.

If liberals are going to worry, might as well start with something that is based on more recent historical patterns..

And the rise and fall of the ocean level isn't based on historical patterns?

The geological record would beg to differ.

I'm not worried about global warming, mainly because I can do nothing about it.

I have heard that Mt. St. Helens released far more greenhouse gasses the day it blew than all the pollution in the history of mankind. We puny humans are no match, for better or worse, against mother nature.

A major geological event on the San Andreas is something like every 200 - 300 years. The rise and fall of ocean levels comes and goes with ice ages and global warming in ten thousand year cycles. Not the same thing.

I don't worry Money - the SoCal refugees will be banging on your door well before mine... It has been 250 years since the last big one...

Maybe I will be the proud owner of oceanfront property!!!!

I've heard that statement as well but have never come across any evidence, numbers or further discussion beyond the assertion itself.

I think in terms of dust pollution / ash it is probably believable (dust pollution in the atmosphere would cause a cooling effect). CO2 seems to be held as the main contributor to warming effects (although there are other 'greenhouse gases') but the CO2 output of volcanoes doesn't seem to come close to artificial output. I assume what is presented as the long term averages have to take into accout the major eruptions worldwide.


""Volcanoes and Greenhouse Gases: Do Volcanoes Put Out as Much Carbon Dioxide as We Do?
Terry Gerlach, US Geological Survey, Cascades Volcano Observatory

The greenhouse gas carbon dioxide (CO2) is the most abundant gas (after water) emitted by volcanoes. Volcanologists estimate an annual global output of 200 million tons of volcanic CO2 per year. This natural source is balanced by natural processes that remove CO2 from the atmosphere-specifically by the weathering of rock into soil by atmospheric CO2 dissolved in rain and surface waters.

By comparison, human activities such as the burning of fossil fuels and deforestation produce 130 times more CO2 than all the world's volcanoes put together (adding 26,000 million tons of CO2 to the atmosphere each year, the equivalent of 8,000 Kilaueas (Hawaii's most active volcano). This comparison suggests humans are producing CO2 at a rate unprecedented in a geological history stretching back many millions of years. Clearly, there is need to think seriously about the implications of human CO2 emissions and to consider how current energy policy and land use practices may impact our collective future."

http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/press/2001/pr284.htm "

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At Mount St Helens the maximum measured emission rate was 2.2X10^7 kg per day. The total amount of gas released during non-eruptive periods from the beginning of July to the end of October was 9.1X10^8 kg . I do not have an estimate for the volume of CO2 released during the Plinian eruptions. As a long-term average, volcanism produces about 5X10^11 kg of CO2 per year; that production, along with oceanic and terrestrial biomass cycling maintained a carbon dioxide reservoir in the atmosphere of about 2.2X10^15 kg. Current fossil fuel and land use practices now introduce about a (net) 17.6X10^12 kg of CO2 into the atmosphere and has resulted in a progressively increasing atmospheric reservoir of 2.69X10^15 kg of CO2. Hence, volcanism produces about 3% of the total CO2 with the other 97% coming from man-made sources. For more detail, see Morse and Mackenzie, 1990, Geochemistry of Sedimentary Carbonates.

Scott Rowland, University of Hawaii Steve Mattox, University of North Dakota "



The other main output in major eruptions seems to be SO2, but this is not considered a component of 'global warming' :

"The SO2 converts to sulfuric acid aerosols that block incoming solar radiation and contribute to ozone destrucion. The blocked solar radiation can cause global cooling."

http://volcano.und.edu/vwdocs/Gases/climate.html

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dantilla
I'm not worried about global warming, mainly because I can do nothing about it.

I have heard that Mt. St. Helens released far more greenhouse gasses the day it blew than all the pollution in the history of mankind. We puny humans are no match, for better or worse, against mother nature.
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Gases: Man versus the Volcanoes
Do we add more gases to the atmosphere or do volcanoes? It's a simple question with a complicated answer. Reaching a good estimate is important in guiding global policy for standards to reduce emissions from man-made sources of gases.

Carbon Dioxide

Present-day carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions from subaerial and submarine volcanoes are uncertain at the present time. Gerlach (1991) estimated a total global release of 3-4 x 10E12 mol/yr from volcanoes. This is a conservative estimate. Man-made (anthropogenic) CO2 emissions overwhelm this estimate by at least 150 times.

Sulfur Emissions

Andres and Kasgnoc (1997) estimated the time-averaged inventory of subaerial volcanic sulfur emissions. There inventory was based upon the 25 year history of making sulfur measurements, primarily sulfur dioxide (SO2), at volcanoes. Actual measurements of subaerial volcanic sulfur dioxide emissions indicate a time-averaged flux of 13 Tg/yr sulfur dioxide from early 1970 to 1997. [Note: a Tg is equal to 10E12 grams]. About 4 Tg come from explosive eruptions and 9 Tg is released by passivedegassing, in an average year. When considering the other sulfur species also present in volcanic emissions, a time-averaged inventory of subaerial volcanic sulfur emissions is 10.4 Tg/yr sulfur.

Volcanoes and other natural processes release approximately 24 Tg of sulfur to the atmosphere each year. Thus, volcanoes are responsible for 43% of the total natural S flux each year. Man's activities add about 79 Tg sulfur to the atmosphere each year. In an average year, volcanoes release only 13% of the sulfur added to the atmosphere compared to anthropogenic sources. Andres and Kasgnoc (1997) noted that the bulk of the anthropogenic flux is located in the northern hemisphere while volcanic fluxes occur in much more focused belts around the world.

Gases from Kilauea provides a comparison of a man-made sulfur dioxide gas leaked at a refinery to the gas released by a volcano.

Annual Average Global Emissions of HCl, HF, and HBr, in Tg

Source
HCl
HF
HBr

Volcanoes
7.8
0.4
0.078

Oceans
300
0.02
1

Coal combustion
1.8
0.18
0.08

Petroleum combustion
0.013
0.00036

Natural gas combustion
.0022


Data compiled by Cadle (1980). Most of the gases emitted by the ocean return to the oceans.

Heavy Metals

Volcanoes also release heavy metal elements as particulate matter. Buat-Menard and Arnold (1978) looked at heavy metals released by Etna. Compared to anthropogenic (man-made) sources, the amount of lead released by Etna is insignificant, the amounts of cadmium, mercury, copper, and zinc are comparable; and the amount of selenium is greater than other sources in the Mediterranean atmospheric environment.


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Sources of Information:

Andreae M.O., 1990, Ocean-atmosphere interaction in the global biogeochemical sulfur cycle: Marine Chemistry, v. 30: 1-29.

Andres, R.J., and Kasgnoc, A.D., Global Emissions Inventory Activity, 1997, Global Emissions Inventory Activity: Time-Averaged Inventory of Volcanic Sulfur Emissions.

Barnes, Ivan, Irwin, W.P., and White, D.E., 1978, Global distribution of carbon dioxide discrages, and major zones of seismicity: U.S. Geological Survey Water Resources Investigation 78-79, Open-File Report, 12 p.

Bates, T.S., Lamb, B.K., Guenther, A., Dignon, J., Stoiber, R.E., 1992, Sulfur emissions to the atmosphere from natural sources. Journal of Atmospheric Chemistry 14:315-337.

Buat-Menard, P., and Arnold, M., 1978, The heavy metal chemistry of atmospheric particulate matter emitted by Mount Etna volcano: Geophysical Research Letters, v. 5, p. 245.

Cadle, R.D., 1980, A comparison of volcanic with other fluxes of atmospheric trace gas constituents: Reviews of Geophysics and Space Physics, v. 18, p. 746-752.

Tamar Elias, written communication, , 28 May 1997.

Gerlach, T.M., 1991, Present-day CO2 emissions from volcanoes: Transactions of the American Geophysical Union (EOS), v. 72, p. 249, and 254-255.

Gerlach, T.M., 1991, Etna's Greenhouse Pump: Nature, 351, p. 352-353.

Gerlach, T.M., 1990, Natural Sources of Greenhouse gases: CO2 emissions from volcanoes. Geothermal Resources Council Transactions, vol. 14, part I, pp. 639-641,


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Caveat: I'm no scientist. BUT from what I have read on the subject (which is alot), CO2 gases are the primary cause of GW. So it would seem that the volcanic arguement proves false.

Jorian, have you read this paper by James Hansen? Recall that Hansen is one of the global warming crowd's poster boys.
"we argue that rapid warming in recent decades has been driven mainly by non-CO2 greenhouse gases"

Theologicaly speaking

Global warming is a reminder to Liberals that they are going to go to He11 when they die!

From the Hansen abstract:

"The growth rate of non-CO2 GHGs has declined in the past decade. If sources of CH4 and O3 precursors were reduced in the future, the change in climate forcing by non-CO2 GHGs in the next 50 years could be near zero. Combined with a reduction of black carbon emissions and plausible success in slowing CO2 emissions, this reduction of non-CO2 GHGs could lead to a decline in the rate of global warming, reducing the danger of dramatic climate change."

The above arguement, without supprting documents, supposes that climate change caused by CH4 and O3 precursors could be abated given a reduction of these gases. The same could be said for CO2. If these gas emissions can be reduced by us and consequently mitigate future GW trends the arguement is moot as we are substituting one harmful gas for another. Logically, it is still human activity causing the problem.

Can't argue Hansen's bonafides as I haven't read the source of his arguements

"fear" is the wrong word.

jorian says that GW was caused by hot air?

That is ludiculous...Is there nothing you air-heads won't blame on our great and noble leader, GW Bush?

BTW...Al Gore asserting global warming is "settled" is a lie...In fact global warming, or man's contribution to the myth of it, is a concoction of the anti-industrialists and neo-communists.