Not Enough Violence

[ianc]

These people are no more than animals, absolutely lacking in everything that defines "civilization" on a social level. They are barbarians. Always have been, always will be.

I agree with the first part of this, but the reason it is so is because they are ignorant and uneducated. Their culture has been steeped in superstition and religion for so long that they can't help but be the way they are. To change this, we need to educate them. As a general rule, the more educated people become, the less of an overarching role religion plays in their lives.

They don't look like they'll change now (and they haven't), but in 10-15 years I'm betting attitudes change somewhat. I feel we can help with this.

ianc

[Superman]

Originally posted by fastpat
It's not "our money", it is money taken at gunpoint from individuals. It needs to be returned to those individuals. They will know best what to do with it.

You're merely advocating one half of the welfare/warfare state; you can't have one without the other.

Wrong, Pat. It is our money. Even if taken at gunpoint (another lie), it is still our money. If you prefer to be selfish and are uncomfortable paying taxes, then leave. We can see your are pissed off and believe you would be better off paying private companies for all your needs. Like I say, more power to ya. This is the United States of America. It's okay if you go somewhere that makes you happier.

While you are there, you would benefit from some additional research on this notion that there should be no government. As I have said many times, libertarianism is seductive at first......but there is a reason why so many intelligent people have been drawn to it, and then walked away. You are in between Step 1 and Step 2.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
Wrong, Pat. It is our money. Even if taken at gunpoint (another lie), it is still our money. If you prefer to be selfish and are uncomfortable paying taxes, then leave.

That's nothing more than the sociofascist concept of the "fair share" without any method named to determine what that "fair share" should be except for the very same government entity that then decides where it should be spent on and on whom. If you think taxes aren't taken at gun point, then how, exactly, are they collected?

While you are there, you would benefit from some additional research on this notion that there should be no government. As I have said many times, libertarianism is seductive at first......but there is a reason why so many intelligent people have been drawn to it, and then walked away. You are in between Step 1 and Step 2.

Yeah, I was childish once upon a time, and accepted your point of view. Then I grew up and saw clearly what was happening, and then became a libertarian anarchist.

I progressed from socialism (as a teen) to libertarianism. You, obviously by your own admission, are still stuck in the socialist aspic. It is socialism that is the anachronistic philosophy, still with the notion that if we (any group) simply allow the intellectual socialists (you and people like you) to be in charge, we'll all live happy productive lives.

It's as childish a notion as one could possibly have.

[Superman]

Originally posted by fastpat
[B]
Yeah, I was childish once upon a time, and accepted your point of view. Then I grew up and saw clearly what was happening, and then became a libertarian anarchist.

I progressed from socialism (as a teen) to libertarianism. You, obviously by your own admission, are still stuck in the socialist aspic. It is socialism that is the anachronistic philosophy, still with the notion that if we (any group) simply allow the intellectual socialists (you and people like you) to be in charge, we'll all live happy productive lives.

You say taxes are taken at gunpoint. I say we've decided, as a nation, to build certain stuff as a community. Roads, schools, etc. Hard for the rest of us to imagine the utopia you envision where there is sufficient competition in the various companies I can purchase Road Rights from so I can drive where I need to go..... With a hundred different road systems to rent, I wonder what real estate will be left for houses, business, trees, etc. And waste water transport and treatment systems. They're very expensive. I wonder how a hundred WWT companies will make profits from you and I. BTW, public WWTP's enjoy economies of scale that are impossible where multiple companies are required for proper competition....and public entities will not, cannot and need not pay out dividends.

At any rate, you say taxes are taken at gunpoint and that you are an anarchist. If you are uncomfortable with the government created by the laws of the United States of America and you are inclined to actively oppose those laws then I'm, done inviting you to leave, and I'm insisting you leave. My country has a government and anybody whose goal is to frustrate or eliminate it......is a terrorist.

Go make your Utopia somewhere else. And good luck with the infrastructure thing. We've got a system here, thanks. If you actively oppose the will of the people here, you are a traitor. And frankly, you sound like one. I think it's time you and others of your ilk go somewhere and show us how perfectly your system of non-government works. Don't forget to write.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
You say taxes are taken at gunpoint. I say we've decided, as a nation, to build certain stuff as a community. Roads, schools, etc. Hard for the rest of us to imagine the utopia you envision where there is sufficient competition in the various companies I can purchase Road Rights from so I can drive where I need to go..... With a hundred different road systems to rent, I wonder what real estate will be left for houses, business, trees, etc. And waste water transport and treatment systems. They're very expensive. I wonder how a hundred WWT companies will make profits from you and I. BTW, public WWTP's enjoy economies of scale that are impossible where multiple companies are required for proper competition....and public entities will not, cannot and need not pay out dividends.

At any rate, you say taxes are taken at gunpoint and that you are an anarchist. If you are uncomfortable with the government created by the laws of the United States of America and you are inclined to actively oppose those laws then I'm, done inviting you to leave, and I'm insisting you leave. My country has a government and anybody whose goal is to frustrate or eliminate it......is a terrorist.

Go make your Utopia somewhere else. And good luck with the infrastructure thing. We've got a system here, thanks. If you actively oppose the will of the people here, you are a traitor. And frankly, you sound like one. I think it's time you and others of your ilk go somewhere and show us how perfectly your system of non-government works. Don't forget to write.

No. We're done with your violent welfare/warfare state. We will break its' back, and you really won't be able to stop us.

[dtw]

Soup vs. Paste has been a long time coming. New thread?

[dd74]

Originally posted by ianc
Their culture has been steeped in superstition and religion for so long that they can't help but be the way they are. To change this, we need to educate them. As a general rule, the more educated people become, the less of an overarching role religion plays in their lives.

They don't look like they'll change now (and they haven't), but in 10-15 years I'm betting attitudes change somewhat. I feel we can help with this.

ianc

Well, this is all fine and good, but you've left out three core issues: 1) the agressor as educator; 2) Democracy's at-home failings; 3) what Christianity seeks as its own truth.

How do we, as the educators, appear to the, the wobegone religiously-hazed superstitious? We and our allies bomb their cities, destroy their infrastructure, and push their country into a state reminiscent of warring tribes, and they should be expected to allow us to educate them?

And educate them with what? Democracy? Christianity? All these religiously ignorant middle eastern souls need is a satellite dish and a TV to see democracy in action with examples such as Katrina in New Orleans; a fine display of democratic representation right there.

And our country based on Christian principles is nothing to write from Baghdad about, particularly when we are disallowed civil liberties, are illegally wiretapped, are lied to by our president, and forced in a war that benefits a select few against the larger population. But this pales in comparison to what most probably is seen by Islamics as a simple old school holy war between our God and their Allah where we determine, simply, that we as a Christian-based nation is right, and they as followers of their own god are wrong.

[fintstone]

!. Draft=bad idea. The volunteer military has standards....your whiney, loser, liberal, panty-waisted kids are not good enough...we don't want them.

2. Soup vs Paste=bad idea. Discussing taxes with Soup makes even paste seem rational.

[Superman]

Originally posted by fastpat
No. We're done with your violent welfare/warfare state. We will break its' back, and you really won't be able to stop us.

Yeah. Good luck with that. Same as the libertarian goal when I was feeling supportive. Thirty years ago. Pretty slow-moving Coup d'etat. And if you're hoping to overthrow this country's government or its economic system, then we have a couple of labels that fit you, Pat. We've got "Traitor" and "Terrorist."

Think of it. Really. Think. A land with no police, except ones you can buy. Those police forces would compete with each other. With no regulatory oversight. Meditate on that for a moment. We can discuss the various unregulated sewer systems later. And other questions.

Fint......when Pat leaves, he might need your help getting set up in Greenland or wherever he goes. Good opportunity for you. We have a government here in the United States that needs our support and if someone in your position can't figure that out, then there's a problem.

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
[B
It's as childish a notion as one could possibly have. [/B]

Sort of like believing in an independent southern utopia.

Will Santa Clause be on your official seal?

[Moses]

Originally posted by DavidI
I feel so sorry for those two soldiers who were tortured and murdered. We either need to nuke the lot or get the hell out. I cannot stand that our great young men and women are losing their lives at the hands of these terrorist beasts. Let them live like the animals that they are. We should focus those efforts and money on bettering our population.

I would like to see higher education or trade schools either fully paid or subsidized with the money wasted in Iraq. With all of our efforts to gain control of the oil market, gasoline is more expensive than ever.

We need to celebrate our soldiers and refocus our efforts. Now the government is focusing on Korea. Every powerful country who maintained multiple battlefronts was defeated. Why are we doing the same?

David

[ianc]

And our country based on Christian principles is nothing to write from Baghdad about, particularly when we are disallowed civil liberties, are illegally wiretapped, are lied to by our president, and forced in a war that benefits a select few against the larger population. But this pales in comparison to what most probably is seen by Islamics as a simple old school holy war between our God and their Allah where we determine, simply, that we as a Christian-based nation is right, and they as followers of their own god are wrong.

You're sounding a bit Pastesque there dd. Sure we're not perfect, but tell me deep in your heart you don't think our society isn't 1000x freer and more accepting than theirs. Your post trashes our society through the mud, but when you take a look at what you're comparing it against, that seems pretty silly.

Naturally they resent us for religious regions, as mentioned. If they didn't, they'd all be gathering around in a circle to hear the good word. My point is that if education and an awareness of what's going on in the rest of the world can be brought home to these people, they may begin to emerge from their Islamic cocoon; something that would benefit everyone IMHO. I belive this will happen over time,

ianc

[dd74]

Originally posted by ianc
You're sounding a bit Pastesque there dd. Sure we're not perfect, but tell me deep in your heart you don't think our society isn't 1000x freer and more accepting than theirs. Your post trashes our society through the mud, but when you take a look at what you're comparing it against, that seems pretty silly.

Naturally they resent us for religious regions, as mentioned. If they didn't, they'd all be gathering around in a circle to hear the good word. My point is that if education and an awareness of what's going on in the rest of the world can be brought home to these people, they may begin to emerge from their Islamic cocoon; something that would benefit everyone IMHO. I belive this will happen over time,

ianc

Truer, more self-centered words could not have been spoken as clear as yours. It's fairly ignorant on your part to believe, for some strange reason, we are the chosen ones to lead the world's unfortunates along a path this country itself can barely keep its wheels on.

[Moneyguy1]

fint:

Respectfully.....the military does have standards, but more and more the individuals willing to sign up require remedial training. In an era of more and more sophisticated weaponry, we need better educated personnel, not highschool dropouts.

Article by Joseph Galloway reads in part:

"The army, in particular, has been forced to accept more recruits who score in the lowest quarter of the military's aptitude testing and has set up programs to bring in highschool dropouts. "

Interesting read: "AWOL: The Unexpected Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service".

In the years after WWII, virtually every member of Congress was a veteran of military service. By 1971, three quarters of the members had worn the uniform. Today, only a third of the 535 members of the Senate and the House have served.

Not having veterans throughout the decision-making process damages the country's ability to make sound decisions on the use of our military.. Without them, the political leadership has less understanding of the true cost of war and who pays that proce.

Any division between the military and the rest of us weakens the country and increases the risk that the military "will be overused and under-led and that support will run out fast for any project that becomes a political liability".

When those who benefit most from living in a country contribute the least to its defense and those who benefit least are asked to pay the ultimate price, something happens to the soul of that country.

[RoninLB]

There are many forms of democracy. What's important is voter control of the gov't. Turkey is the local model for them. Turkey even prevents severe corruption of the gov't by stating in its constitution that the military can take over if there's a big political problem. A developed economy solves much political bs.

The US has been the world's model since the US got its act together at the end of the War of 1812. Every nation watches the US. It has become the world's nation builder when US politics allowed it. Democracies don't start wars and they become economic partners in one way or another.

The Dem policy of brainwashing is a failure. Sure there are the true peaceniks that have had their emotions hijacked and there are the political hate groups which have become a problem for Dem policy thinkers. The latest is the rejection of 3 Dem resolutions. The Reps deserve a political ass whooping but the Dem disarray is not how to accomplish it. It was the Dems who were the world's democracy leaders and who used the military to contain and/or defeat totalitarian ideologies in this century before the late 1960s produced Woodstock's generation. The Dems could start with supporting the war against terrorism and not stating they want to abandon the Iraqi people. I really don't think that will happen any time soon judging from the scene going down with Dem Sen Joe Liberman. He's aligned philosophically with Dem thinkers but is currently being attacked by the far left so much they may take his seat. Dem 527 groups have an agenda and no need to appeal to the center. That's how they raise money. They're making it easy to get the Reps reelected without the Reps having to cleaning up their act.

The US should have a bipartisan consensus on the current war instead of being trashed by boomers out to relive their youth.

[Moses]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
"The Unexpected Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service".

Unexpected? Hardly. The following is a partial list of US military deployments since Vietnam. More and more, the White House uses the armed forces as a foriegn policy tool. No more noble struggle to save the world from fascists. Join the military and there's a good chance the president will put you in harms way.

VIETNAM l960-75 Troops, naval, bombing, nuclear threats Fought South Vietnam revolt & North Vietnam; one million killed in longest U.S. war; atomic bomb threats in l968 and l969.
LAOS 1962 Command operation Military buildup during guerrilla war.
CUBA l961 Command operation CIA-directed exile invasion fails.
GERMANY l961 Nuclear threat Alert during Berlin Wall crisis.
CUBA l962 Nuclear threat, naval Blockade during missile crisis; near-war with Soviet Union.
PANAMA l964 Troops Panamanians shot for urging canal's return.
INDONESIA l965 Command operation Million killed in CIA-assisted army coup.
DOMINICAN REPUBLIC 1965-66 Troops, bombing Marines land during election campaign.
GUATEMALA l966-67 Command operation Green Berets intervene against rebels.
DETROIT l967 Troops Army battles African Americans, 43 killed.
UNITED STATES l968 Troops After King is shot; over 21,000 soldiers in cities.
CAMBODIA l969-75 Bombing, troops, naval Up to 2 million killed in decade of bombing, starvation, and political chaos.
OMAN l970 Command operation U.S. directs Iranian marine invasion.
LAOS l971-73 Command operation, bombing U.S. directs South Vietnamese invasion; "carpet-bombs" countryside.
SOUTH DAKOTA l973 Command operation Army directs Wounded Knee siege of Lakotas.
MIDEAST 1973 Nuclear threat World-wide alert during Mideast War.
CHILE 1973 Command operation CIA-backed coup ousts elected marxist president.
CAMBODIA l975 Troops, bombing Gas captured ship, 28 die in copter crash.
ANGOLA l976-92 Command operation CIA assists South African-backed rebels.
IRAN l980 Troops, nuclear threat, aborted bombing Raid to rescue Embassy hostages; 8 troops die in copter-plane crash. Soviets warned not to get involved in revolution.
LIBYA l981 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down in maneuvers.
EL SALVADOR l981-92 Command operation, troops Advisors, overflights aid anti-rebel war, soldiers briefly involved in hostage clash.
NICARAGUA l981-90 Command operation, naval CIA directs exile (Contra) invasions, plants harbor mines against revolution.
LEBANON l982-84 Naval, bombing, troops Marines expel PLO and back Phalangists, Navy bombs and shells Muslim positions.
GRENADA l983-84 Troops, bombing Invasion four years after revolution.
HONDURAS l983-89 Troops Maneuvers help build bases near borders.
IRAN l984 Jets Two Iranian jets shot down over Persian Gulf.
LIBYA l986 Bombing, naval Air strikes to topple nationalist gov't.
BOLIVIA 1986 Troops Army assists raids on cocaine region.
IRAN l987-88 Naval, bombing US intervenes on side of Iraq in war.
LIBYA 1989 Naval jets Two Libyan jets shot down.
VIRGIN ISLANDS 1989 Troops St. Croix Black unrest after storm.
PHILIPPINES 1989 Jets Air cover provided for government against coup.
PANAMA 1989 (-?) Troops, bombing Nationalist government ousted by 27,000 soldiers, leaders arrested, 2000+ killed.
LIBERIA 1990 Troops Foreigners evacuated during civil war.
SAUDI ARABIA 1990-91 Troops, jets Iraq countered after invading Kuwait. 540,000 troops also stationed in Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Israel.
IRAQ 1990-? Bombing, troops, naval Blockade of Iraqi and Jordanian ports, air strikes; 200,000+ killed in invasion of Iraq and Kuwait; no-fly zone over Kurdish north, Shiite south, large-scale destruction of Iraqi military.
KUWAIT 1991 Naval, bombing, troops Kuwait royal family returned to throne.
LOS ANGELES 1992 Troops Army, Marines deployed against anti-police uprising.
SOMALIA 1992-94 Troops, naval, bombing U.S.-led United Nations occupation during civil war; raids against one Mogadishu faction.
YUGOSLAVIA 1992-94 Naval NATO blockade of Serbia and Montenegro.
BOSNIA 1993-? Jets, bombing No-fly zone patrolled in civil war; downed jets, bombed Serbs.
HAITI 1994 Troops, naval Blockade against military government; troops restore President Aristide to office three years after coup.
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be "terrorist" nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole, docked in Aden, bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime, and battle Taliban insurgency.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002-? Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Saddam regime toppled in Baghdad. US and UK forces occupy country and battle Sunni and Shi'ite insurgencies. Clashes on border with Syria.
LIBERIA 2003 Troops Brief involvement in peacekeeping force as rebels drove out leader.
HAITI 2004-05 Troops, naval Marines land after rebels oust elected President Aristide, who was advised to leave by Washington.
PAKISTAN 2005-? Missiles, covert operation CIA airstrikes on Al Qaeda.

[Joeaksa]

Hate to disagree but feel that ever man and woman should serve two years in the military, period.

Unless they re-up or enlist for a longer period they get no extended training but military service is good for a person (most of them that is) and people come out a better rounded individual.

My 2c worth...

[Moneyguy1]

Joe...We are in agreement. Perhaps some of these armchair hawks might just get a dose of badly needed reality rather than simply thinking every half-baked idea that comes into their addled brains is "reality".

Nothing like the sight of a few dead bodies to sober one up...

[RoninLB]

It's accepted that a draft with deferments creates political problems during war time. If there were no deferments the whole country would have a vested interest in a war's success. A deferment for a college student is bs. Manditory service is too radical to be accepted without even a functional draft policy being used first.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Superman
Yeah. Good luck with that. Same as the libertarian goal when I was feeling supportive. Thirty years ago. Pretty slow-moving Coup d'etat. And if you're hoping to overthrow this country's government or its economic system, then we have a couple of labels that fit you, Pat. We've got "Traitor" and "Terrorist."

No, they call us patriots and seekers of liberty; same as Jefferson, Franklin, Henry, Washington, et al.

Think of it. Really. Think. A land with no police, except ones you can buy.

Instead of an all powerful one that you can buy? Exciting, isn't it? The fastest growing segment in security and law enforcement is private police. Today, right now.

Those police forces would compete with each other. With no regulatory oversight.

That's not true, they'd be regulated by their customers, like they are now, only not for a connected few. Do you, for one moment, think the police are dispassionate, non-judgemental automatons that don't respond to the people with money? Get serious.

Reference: The Enterprise of Law - Justice Without the State

Meditate on that for a moment. We can discuss the various unregulated sewer systems later. And other questions.

What are you talking about? The state does almost none of those things, or does them poorly and without oversight of any kind.

Fint......when Pat leaves, he might need your help getting set up in Greenland or wherever he goes. Good opportunity for you. We have a government here in the United States that needs our support and if someone in your position can't figure that out, then there's a problem.

Interesting, and not surprising at all, that you turn to the warfare half of the welfare/warfare state for support. It's not democracy you like, it's the brute force of the state with which you have the most affinity.

Typical.