Now Hizbollah Gets Into The Act -- 2 IDF Captured. "Act of War"

[dd74]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile

I bet the college and university industry and their backers (banks) would oppose it though. . . Currently they make a KILLING off of charging indecisive young kids a fortune to stay in college screwing off and floundering around for years figuring out what they want. There'd be a lot fewer "six-year-program" students (and correspondingly less revenue) if more mature and grounded early 20-somethings entered college instead of teenagers looking for an excuse to f*ck and get drunk all the time.

True, but you know, if a kid of age to go to war is allowed no deferments whatsoever, it certainly would even the playing field in U.S. colleges. At least one economic group (college-wealthy), wouldn't be four-years ahead in their studies than another group (war-usually lower income).

[jyl]

Originally posted by sammyg2
If past actions are indicitive, Israel will not beat around the bush. They will kick as$ and take names. It doesn't taske them very long either:

1967 May: Forces on both Arab and Israeli sides of the borders are mobilized.
June 5 1967: Israel attacks Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel achieved great victories immediately, especially on the Egyptian front, where Egyptian air crafts are wiped out after effective bombing of air strips.
June 7 1967: The strategically important Egyptian Sharm el-Sheikh is captured.
— Jordan surrenders to Israel, after having lost East Jerusalem and the West Bank.
June 8 1967: The entire Sinai comes under Israeli control. Later that evening, Israeli fights on the Egyptian front cease.
June 10 1967: Syria surrenders, after seeing Golan Heights come under Israeli control.
On June 11th, (the 7th day) they rested.

The Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War, also known as the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, was fought from October 6 to October 26, 1973, between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.

The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

Conventional war against conventional armies is very different from guerrilla/insurgency wars.

Obviously Israel can flatten with airstrikes or roll their armour into as much of Gaza and Lebanon as they please, anytime they want. They have done so many times. Then what? Hamas etc are still here.

We're learning the same thing in Iraq. We can put bombs and boots on any part of the country whenever we choose, and the insurgents can't stop us. But we haven't been able to control the country.

If Israel could squash Hamas et al in 6 days they would have done so long ago. It is not that easy.

[turbo6bar]

If Israel is provoked, could they not revert back to old style war, ala WWII: flatten and rebuild? Otherwise, I'm not sure there exists an army capable of defeating guerillas city by city, block by block, and house by house.

dd, we need only lose oil from one of the major producers to make trouble. If Iran took production out of the loop, worldwide demand would be outrun supply. In that case, $75/barrel is dirt cheap. I suppose we could just declare war on the offender. What's another $2Billion per day when you have the world's most generous bankers: China and Japan?

[dd74]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
If Israel is provoked, could they not revert back to old style war, ala WWII: flatten and rebuild? Otherwise, I'm not sure there exists an army capable of defeating guerillas city by city, block by block, and house by house.

dd, we need only lose oil from one of the major producers to make trouble. If Iran took production out of the loop, worldwide demand would be outrun supply. In that case, $75/barrel is dirt cheap. I suppose we could just declare war on the offender. What's another $2Billion per day when you have the world's most generous bankers: China and Japan?

I agree on both your points. Now it's up to Bush if this really pans out; see how he's advised.

I remember during the Gulf War how Iraq was firing SCUDs into Israel, and Bush Sr. was all but yelling at the Israelis to not retaliate.

I wonder what GW is going to do? I wonder if this gives us, more or less, a green light to throw down on Iran?

[sammyg2]

I don't think any country can eliminate hamas, but israel can slow them down and hurt their operations by cutting the purse strings. Hamas is funded through lebanon by syria and recieves safe harbor from them. That is well documented.

They will go after the countries that support terrorism with conventional means.
Syria will give up so fast it will make the french proud.

[charleskieffner]

after reading the latest msnbc report it doesnt look like israel is going to stop anytime soon. they are pissed and like i mentioned before the dogs of war are now loose! and its going to be a long time before they are chained up again and muzzled. the can of whup A$$ is opened and they are going to do the traditional IDF kick A$$ and not take any names! worked for ISCAR israeli carbide. many of the people i worked with were 6-day vets. their is only so much crap anyone is going to take before they react. the genie is out of the bottle and its going to be damn hard to put him back in!!! as mentioned before this will be front stage for all the terrorists to flock to from iraq, and more than likely will relieve our military of quite abit of rif raff in iraq. if anyone has noticed how quick reservists were called up, gunboats in blockade position, this was one well planned operation that israel knew was coming.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by turbo6bar
If Israel is provoked, could they not revert back to old style war, ala WWII: flatten and rebuild? Otherwise, I'm not sure there exists an army capable of defeating guerillas city by city, block by block, and house by house.
...

Israel is not stupid. They can do everything they need from a distance. They have learned from their previous mistakes and ours....They could care less about liberating the people of these countries. They could care less if they flatten infrastructure (they have no intent of rebuilding). they only mean to teach a lesson and reduce the number of terrorists so that the moderates can dispose or at least minimize their effect...or at least so they are unable to effectively attack Israel.

Also, unlike the US, even most panty waisted liberals support such defensive actions...so there will not be "the enemy within" to contend with as we have in the US.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I disagree with Israel's response to these recent attacks. A couple of idiot bandits with machine guns ran across the borders and kidnapped a soldier or two. Am I wrong, or does this not seem like a hugely terrible event. It's not like the bombing of the World Trade center - it's kidnapping three soldiers, who are in a risky endevour, along a contigious border.

The goverment of Palestine can't seem to control the military wing of Hamas. Ditto for Hezbollah. Israel bringing down the wrath upon Lebanon and the Palestinian territories seems to be an overreaction, when more can be gained through diplomacy and working with the nacent governments. I'm not saying be a wuss on this issue, but the overall bigger picture needs to be addressed here. These little gangs attacked Israel, and now Israel is wiping out sections of Gaza and southern Lebanon. I don't think the majority of citizens in the territories want an all-out war with Israel. This small bandit group wanted to provoke Israel in to responding so that they could broadcast it around the world. Well, it's working, and now Israel is looking like they are overreacting.

I'm not saying they should back off, but it would seem that they should hold some constraint. Heck, Hussein launched a scud into Israel several years ago, and they held back - that seemed like a much bigger deal than a small group of bandits making trouble at the border...

-Wayne

Israel is just taking wise advantage of the situation. Neither Lebanon nor Palestine attempt to control terrorists within their border and even provide tacit support. Israel will reduce the number of terrorists enough in each area so that the locals can take control. If they choose not to...they are complicit and deserve what they get.

[dd74]

Wayne - after being needled and persecuted, bombed and terrorized for a good part of the 20th Century, don't you think Israel has realistically had enough?

[jyl]

That "body count" approach [edit: what fint posted] will not work, any more than our stacking up dead insurgents in Iraq is reducing the number of bombings and killings in that country.

Israeli raids into southern Lebanon or Gaza will not change the number of terrorists.

Consider how many times Israel has sent forces into Gaza and Lebanon over the past decades. Indeed, Israel occupied southern Lebanon for many years. Was the result that the terrorists were reduced enough that "locals took control", in your words? Of course not. Hamas and Hizbollah are as established as ever.

Part of the reason is that the terrorists are not stupid. They are mobile and will simply move away, or hide among the civilian population, until the Israeli forces leave.

Part of the reason is that Israeli attacks help the terrorists' recruiting. Each time an Israeli bomb strikes a family, the surviving young men of the family are more likely to become terrorists.

And part of the reason is that in a way Hamas and Hizbollah are the locals. They have widespread support among the population, Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians and Hizbollah is part of the democratically elected Lebanese government.

I think Israel should be doing more to pressure the supporters of Hizbollah. E.g. an ultimatum to the Syrians to force Hizbollah to return the captured soldiers, followed if needed by escalating airstrikes on Syrian targets.

[Edit: I also think pressuring the Lebanese govt where it hurts, i.e. tourism revenue via airport, is also more effective than simply sending tanks to roll around Southern Lebanon.]

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Noah


Israel's response is weak and potentially foolish.

Politically weak or weaponry weak?

I agree on the foolish part for most of the reasons Wayne stated. It's way over the top for the act against those soldiers.

These terror groups are much like the drug dealing thugs or gang bangers of the inner city. They may be your neighbors and you may not like them or want them there, but it doesn't mean you're endorsing their actions. Even the US, when someone lashes out against the criminals, they are often "dealt with". Most of these innocent people caught up in it have no trust of the Police (because they are lumped in just the same with the criminals) and have no resources to escape to a better place. (Hell, look at NO last summer).

I can only imagine with the corruption and mistrust of these ME governments that is has to be 100x worse. It's easy for us, as men of means and intelligence and understanding of the system to say bomb the s--- out of all of them for harboring, etc, etc. but consider that none of the innocent people want to be caught up in this s---.

[charleskieffner]

bottom line...........when hamas and hezbollah cannot purchase any weapons will they figure out that it is not wise to piss israel off! since IDF navy has blockaded ports, airport in-operative, they will be forced to count their bullets, and rely on donkey power to transport munitions. a hell of a way to supply their fighters. i really doubt the IDF will pull out anytime soon. they are going to make some real big examples this time.

[VaSteve]

Originally posted by Noah


Wayne's comparison of Hezbollah to a "rag-tag" group of fighters, and your comparison of it to street thugs or drug dealers, is ludicrous.

I reread my post. I disagree that they are similar in scope and power, but not in the average man's reaction to them.

Everyone speaks of wiping out entire communities and acceptable collateral damage for those harboring these terrorists.

I find it hard to believe that the common man over there caught up in this is any more involved than the average Joe is over here given my example.

The Lebanese, for the most part, want Hezbollah out of their country, but Hezbollah (controlled by Iran through Syria) is probably too powerful for the Lebanese government to remove. By attacking targets in Lebanon, Israel is attempting to pressure the Lebanese government to expel Hezbollah;

If Lebanon can't get Hebollah out on their own, how does Israel espect them to do it under pressure?

[coldstart]

Hamas is the government in Gaza and Hezbollah has complete control over southern Lebanon. Hezbollah patrols the border with Israel, not Lebanese soldiers. Hamas and Hezbollah have transformed Gaza and Lebanon into terrorist states.

I am not advocating that Israel's response is justified. Personally, I believe that loss of innocent human life is unjustifiable. However, I can't think of a way to prevent bloodshed. I agree though that you have to go for root of the terror, Syria and Iran, but an attack on those countries won't solve anything, just cause further responses (unless its a nuclear blast, which is WRONG)

[Overpaid Slacker]

Wayne (et al.) --

From what I've read (including counterterrorismblog.org, which is a good site), there's a whole lot more than the simple "snatch and grab" you characterize.

Fer instance, there is evidence now that Hizbollah hacked into IDF computers just before the raid (reported by Israeli Channel 10). They also managed to kill 5 or 6 of the 8 killed by planting a very powerful mine behind them to cover their escape. These are sophisticated, co-ordinated efforts amongst Hizbollah, Hamas, Iran (the $$) and Syria (the haven). This is not some "renegade Hizbollah" pinhead just screwing around and kidnapping IDF on a lark. It is part of a much larger, joint effort. I strongly recommend reading "Inside Hizbollah's decision-making" on the counterterrorismblog.org page.

A few other excerpts from another article on that site (some of which address Noah's concern that Israel is alienating the Lebanese):

"4- The Hezbollah action was most probably coordinated with Hamas, Iran and Syria. The recent meetings in Damascus and Tehran between all the parties involved is a clear sign of that careful planning. A Hamas leader based in Lebanon, Osama Hamdane, stated that the nature of the relation betwen Hamas and Hezbollah leads to mutual understanding and coordination.

5- Sheikh Nasrallah, Hezbollah's leader declared that "the enemy is stuck between Gaza and Lebanon and we are preparing unexpected surprises for him." He also called for Iraqis to step up their resistance against the American invader. Finally he threatened his fellow Lebanese who " by their behaviors will provide cover for the enemy". He also warned the "Lebanese media who will undermine the morale of the resistance."

6- Plenty of Lebanese MPs have been quite vocal in criticizing Hezbollah's actions. The most common expression summarizing the situation for politicians, pundits and laymen is :" Hezbollah opened the gates of Hell." Most commentators, except on Shia radio and TV stations, are also putting the blame on Syria and Iran.

7- How are people on the street reacting ?
Hezbollah is quickly losing popularity in Lebanon.
Most of the Lebanese observers expected a very very quiet summer because a truce had been agreed on by all parties inside and outside government, including Hezbollah.
This is the highest touristic season for Lebanon and everybody was waiting to rack the profits from this season.
So Lebanese are upset not only because of the Israeli retaliation, which most non Shias blame on Hizbullah, but also because it hits them right where it hurts: in their wallets.
The other victim of this unpopularity is Christian General Aoun who decided a few months ago against all odds to side with Hezbollah.
Of course let's not forget Syria which is hated even more than before if that was possible because of its major implication in the current escalation of violence."

Just food for thought.

JP