children after 40 - Page 2

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Moses
Wow. You are tough. Your "prenuptual" agreement assumes that lives, feelings and needs never change. If your wife just tosses around the idea of having a baby, that's one thing. If she has a heartfelt need to be a mother, that's different. I guess the question is, would you reconsider fatherhood if it meant a great deal to your wife?

If your wife is feeling that primal drive to have a baby, all prior agreements are invalid. Life changes. I'm not at all suggesting that you should relent and father a child when, by your own admission, you would likely resent the child forever. What I'm saying is that your situation could be more complicated than you ever imagined.

For some women, having a baby is fundamental. The thought of growing old without children and grandchildren may leave some women with an emptyness that no husband can fill.

Just something to think about.

Good discussion on a tough issue. Thanks for that!

I think (and I've pointed this out to her) that what's appealing to her (and even to me, to an extent) is the CONCEPT of being a parent and having kids. The reality is considerably more difficult and hellish. As such and becuase I view kids as such a threat to the life I've painstakingly built for myself over years, I feel I cannot and do not yield an inch on this. If I find myself in considerably more comfortable financial security at some point, able to afford a house (or at least a condo) and so-forth in a sustainable manner, I'd be open for considering it. What I'm NOT willing to do is to live in poverty, sleep-deprived misery and resentment for years like my parents did.

I refuse to raise a child in an apartment like my parents did - they clawed at barely poverty-line existence for years just trying to break out of the cycle of "rental rut"-ness while so much of their $$$ got bled off into bringing up my brother and I. They were miserable and we most certainly knew it as children. Did it cross the line into "resentment'? Maybe and maybe not, but most certainly there was a considerable amount of frustration because they couldn't provide for us in the way they wanted because it was so time-consuming and expensive to provide for us as it was. . . It's an all-too-easy situation to get into and a load of guilt I've carried my entire life. Not something I'd feel good passing onto a child of my own.

Yes, I believe some things might be worth fighting hard for and this may (for some) include a great deal of self-sacrifice to raise children. I happen to draw the line in a bit of a different place. Yes, I'd be willing to make some sacrifices, but certainly not to the extent I saw my parents do. Working 2-3 jobs for years, not being able to get ahead at their jobs because they were "held back" by parental responsibilities, strung-out and stressed all the time, living without a house or without even cars for extended periods of time, etc. Was I worth it? They tell me yes (now), but I have a hell of a time with the guilt knowing the misery and suffering they went through as a result of my being here. This is NOT something that would be fair to a child. I in no way think it's selfish to say "me first", and establish my own life to a point I'm comfortable with before even remotely considering bringing a child into the world.

I'm 35 now, my wife is 33. I figure we've got 10-or-so years to get our ***** in order (we're well on the way now I'm happy to say), get our OWN lives and routines and careers in order and get to a point we're pretty certain we're going to be able to give a kid a stable home - not a "scrapping-along" kind of existance that'll put my wife and I both in the insane asylum. If we pull it off before biological limitations take their toll, I'll then open the door to the topic. Until then, I keep it tightly slammed shut - for our own good. If the clock runs out before we get to that point, then I guess it simply wasn't meant to be and I'm okay with that too.

Yes I realize I'm perhaps being a hardass but I have to go by what people say. My wife said years ago (as did I) that she was okay with being a family-of-two. Why should I assume differently now?

Look forward to others' input/suggestions/stories as usual. This is an interesting topic.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

The irony is that you have guys who have their shit together like Jeff (and myself, to a lesser extent) who in reality can afford having kids, but don't want to because it will impinge on our lifestyles; meanwhile those who can't really meet their own basic needs are throwing litters left and right.

To me or Jeff, having a kid would be tantamount to the end of the world, but to someone like one family I know with 7 rugrats from various prior couplings, an unemployed dad and a mom working part time, who are so broke they went without electricity for 2 months last winter, it's apparently no more inconvienent than a flat tire.

Why is that?

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

Probably 'cause the rest of us are paying for it. . .

Viewing their own children and raising them so casually is only being part of the problem. Rest assured you're doing the "better thing" by staying out of that quagmire. . .

Craig 930 RS · 08-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Because they are used to it, probably lived thru it when they were kids, and can handle a honkin' litter. Adaptation.....it takes not much to make some happy.
------
Biv -
Explain to your wife EXACTLY what you told us - the concrete reasons why, in a calm and assertive manner with no distractions at that time of conversation.

Make it happen...let us know how it works out. Your reasons are more than valid - esp the $$$ part.

P.S. I'll be 42 in 20 days and we have a 5 yr old

Paul T · 08-08-2006, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile
Good discussion on a tough issue. Thanks for that!

I think (and I've pointed this out to her) that what's appealing to her (and even to me, to an extent) is the CONCEPT of being a parent and having kids. The reality is considerably more difficult and hellish. As such and becuase I view kids as such a threat to the life I've painstakingly built for myself over years, I feel I cannot and do not yield an inch on this. If I find myself in considerably more comfortable financial security at some point, able to afford a house (or at least a condo) and so-forth in a sustainable manner, I'd be open for considering it. What I'm NOT willing to do is to live in poverty, sleep-deprived misery and resentment for years like my parents did.

I refuse to raise a child in an apartment like my parents did - they clawed at barely poverty-line existence for years just trying to break out of the cycle of "rental rut"-ness while so much of their $$$ got bled off into bringing up my brother and I. They were miserable and we most certainly knew it as children. Did it cross the line into "resentment'? Maybe and maybe not, but most certainly there was a considerable amount of frustration because they couldn't provide for us in the way they wanted because it was so time-consuming and expensive to provide for us as it was. . . It's an all-too-easy situation to get into and a load of guilt I've carried my entire life. Not something I'd feel good passing onto a child of my own.

Yes, I believe some things might be worth fighting hard for and this may (for some) include a great deal of self-sacrifice to raise children. I happen to draw the line in a bit of a different place. Yes, I'd be willing to make some sacrifices, but certainly not to the extent I saw my parents do. Working 2-3 jobs for years, not being able to get ahead at their jobs because they were "held back" by parental responsibilities, strung-out and stressed all the time, living without a house or without even cars for extended periods of time, etc. Was I worth it? They tell me yes (now), but I have a hell of a time with the guilt knowing the misery and suffering they went through as a result of my being here. This is NOT something that would be fair to a child. I in no way think it's selfish to say "me first", and establish my own life to a point I'm comfortable with before even remotely considering bringing a child into the world.

I'm 35 now, my wife is 33. I figure we've got 10-or-so years to get our ***** in order (we're well on the way now I'm happy to say), get our OWN lives and routines and careers in order and get to a point we're pretty certain we're going to be able to give a kid a stable home - not a "scrapping-along" kind of existance that'll put my wife and I both in the insane asylum. If we pull it off before biological limitations take their toll, I'll then open the door to the topic. Until then, I keep it tightly slammed shut - for our own good. If the clock runs out before we get to that point, then I guess it simply wasn't meant to be and I'm okay with that too.

Yes I realize I'm perhaps being a hardass but I have to go by what people say. My wife said years ago (as did I) that she was okay with being a family-of-two. Why should I assume differently now?

Look forward to others' input/suggestions/stories as usual. This is an interesting topic.

If only more people had the same attitude as you, the children of the world would be in a much better place. I applaud your decisions and have similar viewpoints myself (38, married, no kids). Too many rush into parenthood never thinking beyond tomorrow...

charleskieffner · 08-08-2006, 11:50 AM

a note from experience having 2 kids.....................you will never have enough time as you would like to spend with them. you will never have enough money and if you do, it will drain you like owning a race team. you will always scrimp and save to make their lives better than yours was. thats a given in and of itself. we owned our house free and clear and all our vehicles and toys. both of us worked and made good money. it still meant cutting corners everywhere. the very moment those little squirts learned what the word "NO" meant, your life has changed for about 18 more years.

im not trying to scare anybody here. you in your heart have to WANT TO HAVE KIDS. yes you have to think of the monetary drain, the hours(all of them) involved etc. but some people make better parents than others. and some parents evidenced by countless life stories are very poor parents. if i had to do it over again...................i would be even stricter than i was. i gave them freedom sometimes earlier than they deserved or could handle. when they were younger i was a weekend dad. traveled 2-3 weeks out of a month made good bucks etc. but money doesnt solve problems, sometimes it compounds it. it takes BOTH parents to raise a kid properly. and both have to want to give their all to do it. it cant be one sided. both parents must lay down the rules equally. for if not the kids will find the weak link faster than you can spit. when one parents authority is undermined by the other that causes friction btwn the 2 spouses.

having kids was the BEST thing i have ever done in my life. the most difficult, trying, scary thing i have ever done also. talk about hanging your A$$ on the line! wow, they look up to you, your their provider, their wisdom, their dreams, and their future. thats pretty heavy stuff! ITS CALLED THE DREADED "R" WORD.......RESPONSIBILITY!

my kids after the divorce, came and went on no court ordered schedule. my older one stayed with me mostly. the younger became a possession of the ex's and she showered him with gifts unlike the older one who resented that. also the younger one had the run of the streets due to ex being a "functional alcoholic" ie. she could make her 40 hrs, and when she got home she crawled into the bottle and pills. the older one pushed the homework rules, school rules, my house rules etc. one too many times and i kicked him out. he then went to ex's house and got into serious trouble due to lack of parental guidance on ex's part. his mom finally kicked him out and he came back to my house. well after a few more stunts like having 300 people (witnessed by neighbor) at my house for a party, while i was in baja, the HAMMER CAME DOWN! needless to say my house was trashed!

he bounced from job to job and continued to flaunt the law and my rules. he did graduate from high school. finally when the "great golf club caper " went down and he had no remorse because the victim stated he would not press charges if he got his clubs back. well guess what? THE GUY DID PRESS CHARGES and the 4 of them went to court and were sentenced to "30 DAYS IN THE HOLE"! so as i write this i am on the phone on perpetual "IGNORE" holding for someone at the maricopa county jail to find out exactly where he is at and so i may visit him on or about day 28! its a psych thing!

so yes im madder than a hornet at him, downright pissed off as all hell! but do i love him? YES hes my son. do i still want the best for him? YES! will i bust my ass for him despite his stupid stunts? YES! why because i care for him, and despite everything he has done to myself and others, im a caring parent. i dont condone his stunts, but i will back him when he makes sound decisions. AND THATS WHAT YOU GET TO LOOK FORWARD TO AS A PARENT! remember they have a mind of their own and as much as you'd like to CONTROL IT, you will find yourself pissing up a rope when you try!

ronin · 08-08-2006, 12:09 PM

kids after 40? not for me! I need to be supporting my retirement, and not more mouths to feed or college tuitions to pay

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

I'll offer an apparently contradictory view to my previous one (and indicative of the state of confusion I've been thrown into by my last relationship with a truly incredible woman). There is no good time to have kids. Period. You can never really have your ***** together...especially emotionally. Too many people focus on the financial aspects, where the emotional maturity is the key.

And as for having built a nice perfect life, I hate to tell you, but that is a transitory illusion. It could all be gone tomorrow. You just never know. The accumulation of stuff and fun has its place, but in the final analysis it doesn't mean much. How you have affected people does.

I'm not saying that everyone should have kids. If you don't feel it, don't do it. But also don't put too much stock in the nice lifestyle you currently have, because life has a funny way of throwing your curve balls just when you've learned to hit the heat.

Overpaid Slacker · 12:19 PM

I don't profess to understand the "biological clock" (the "bi-illogical clock") but it is, as Moses said, a visceral and nigh-insurmountable drive.

As has also been mentioned, people change over time. I'm with P-o-P, as I've set forth on a number of other threads, but I do acknowledge people change, and even if my future wife were to swear as a condition precedent to our nuptuals that she'd never want kids, it might not be an act of volition for her to feel differently later. That's why God invented pre-nuptual agreements. Nothing is forever, so plan for the end.

Full disclosure -- in the throes of love I once told a girl that yes, I would have kids with her, and, yes, I'd even want them. Boy, did I dodge a bullet when that relationship cratered.

ATEOTD, I'd say something like "look, is it going to make you happier to be with me or to have this 'other' child? I want not to have another child,* in no small part because I want to enjoy my life and our lives together.** If you can't sufficiently enjoy your life and our lives together without inserting another life into the equation, or if you're going to be bitter, then we'd better talk about going our separate ways. And sooner than later, so you can go find someone else whose seed you can host for this all-important 'other' child."

But say it more tactful-like.

*Do not say "I don't want to...", say "I want not to..."; the former implies you're in some middle ground between "wanting to" and "not wanting to".

** After this statement, fully expect some indignant iteration of "so you're not enjoying your life?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?". The principled response to this is that, yes, you're enjoying your life, both severally and jointly, but you don't want your life five years from now to be essentially what it is today. You don't want to put off emancipation from your children for what would be, effectively, another 4 or 5 years.

JP

Moses · 08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nostatic
... life has a funny way of throwing your curve balls just when you've learned to hit the heat.

Forgot who said this, but I repeat it often;

"The quickest way to make God laugh is to make plans."

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

JP, I have to admit that I've been a "no kids" person since my teens, but I have actually softened my stance somewhat recently due to two factors: one being with an incredible woman who melts when she see kids, and I can see it in her eyes, and two, working on myself and getting a glimpse into some of the stuff that drives me. Again, I'm not saying that everyone should have kids, and I think it is ok and "normal" for someone not to want them. But never be too sure about one's actual motives...we're complicated beasts with minds that start getting twisted when we're in the womb and maybe even before (if you buy reincarnation). That's why I now "never say never" .....except for those two times.

Overpaid Slacker · 08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

Well, Moses, it's the quickest way to make the British Car Gods laugh themselves wet.

JP

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

I hear Lucas like the wet...

Superman · 08-08-2006, 12:27 PM

I'm with Moses, as usual. This, to me, is a no-brainer. For a variety of reasons. In marriage, you can win a battle and lose the war. When the new baby comes, you will wonder why you ever considered not having him/her. But before you complete the deal, talk. Perhaps you can get some consideration for your services.

Overpaid Slacker · 12:31 PM

nostatic -- I'm softer now in my absolutes, but it's still how I feel.

It's funny, my 20th HS reunion will be next year, and every girl I dated in HS and all my female friends at the time, were saying in that annoying tone we've all heard "oh, you just wait, you'll want kids. You'll probably have 6 kids!!!" Can't wait to see those people next year.

And, fate smiles on me... I'm dating a 23 y/o, one of whose jobs is working at a day care center. If there's someone more anti-child than me, I'm dating them!

Now, from P-o-P's p/o/v (heh) this makes no sense. Because right now, my grilf has a few years of school left (at least) before she starts bringing in the ducats. So, 'til then, I'm buying all the dinners (so to speak) -- it's like having a dependent already! And this is at a point where my income and fut. earn. pot., if joined with someone similarly situated, would result in a very comfortable life. Thing is, most (attractive) mid-30 y/o single women have trophies or oversize baggage, or they wouldn't be single. Q.E.D.

But whatchyagonnado? You can't (I can't, anyway) choose the people with whom you fall in love. And she can buy me toys when I'm in my dotage. I've just got to make sure that, no matter what she does for a career, she spends at least 1 day a month working at day care, b/c she'll never want kids.

JP

ronin · 08-08-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Overpaid Slacker
*Do not say "I don't want to...", say "I want not to..."; the former implies you're in some middle ground between "wanting to" and "not wanting to".

wrooooong. it implies exactly what it says, and that is: I DON'T WANT TO! it worked every time I tried it

charleskieffner · 08-08-2006, 12:49 PM

i am still on "IGNORE" with the maricopa county jail! humble pie keeps rolling thru my head........................."30 DAYS IN THE HOLE"! LOL!

no matter what you do or how hard you try, they choose their own paths.

NOW TO BEAT ALL I FIND OUT HE IS NOT IN JAIL AS PER MARICOPA COUNTY BOOKING OFFICER! .......................the mystery continues????????????????????

see what parents get to ENDURE! try it , you may like it! but you will turn gray before you EVER WANTED TO! LOL!

Overpaid Slacker · 08-08-2006, 12:59 PM

Ronin -- ?

Saying you "don't want to" is exactly not saying you "want not to".

I may do things I "don't want to", but I won't do anything I "want not to" do.

WANT -- I want to..
MAY (but won't like it) -- don't want to..
WON'T -- want not to..

I dunno, maybe it's how I say it, but if I say "I want not to..." the listener usually gets the point that this is not open for discussion. As opposed to the possibly whiny "I don't wanna...." but then you do anyway.

/semantics

JP

Porsche-O-Phile · Porsche-O-Phile's Garage

The only potential downside to my view and it's something I have to resolve as time goes on is the nagging question of "who's going to take care of us when we get old?" I can live with the spectre of enfeeblement and inability to care for myself but since my wife will statistically outlive me, it bugs me. The thought of condemning the woman I love to a last few years of lonliness and anguish is gut-wrenching and perhaps the only justification I can think of right now to have children.

Of course, as has been said, one could always have children and they could turn around and say "screw you" and not care for you in your old age anyway. One never knows. . .

Tobra · Tobra's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by TerryBPP
Women over the age of 40 have a much higher chance of birthing a child with retardation, down syndrome, ADD, and many other birth defects.

Have her talk to a doctor before you go off half cocked (pun intended). The doc might talk her out of it.

My thoughts exactly,

Moses, why would he not like your insightful response?

If she really has the maternal drive pushing her, you might have to decide whther you want a divorce or a child. Big decision, warrants serious discussion between the involved parties.

My current spouse and I are childless, after bringing the full weight and fury of technology to bear on the problem, no joy. I can tell you there is a void in our lives, think about that too when considering your dilemma.