What exactly is a "liberal arts" college?

[Mumbasa]

I just read that U.S. News & World Report again ranked Williams the top liberal arts college. So what kinds of degrees do liberal arts colleges grant and what kinds of professions do their grads go into?

[red-beard]

It's a place where you go and spend tens of thousands of dollars and come out dumber than you started!

I went to one! Of course, it also offered Engineering...

[Rob Channell]

I'm biased, but it seems like a place to go to become very intelligent, but with no or very few job prospects.

Name some of the liberal arts type degrees and then think about how many people have jobs that actually need this degree. Most are probably teachers and professors.

JMO,

[tabs]

I've got a Liberal Arts Degree from....Ummmm...ahhhh..it was near the Beach somewhere is all I can remember. I just know that after 7 years they gave me the Degree and told me not to come back anymore.

I've always thought that when U got a Liberal Arts Degree that you automatically got to be a Liberal....maybe thats why Liberals are so well ahh WORTHLESS.

[Superman]

The "liberal arts" are the social sciences. The non-science stuff. Poly Sci. Psych. Phil. Soc. History.

"Liberal Arts College" basically connotes a college or university that does not 'bend over' to the accreditation requirements mandated by the various special-discipline associations. Most large, well-known universities do more research than teaching. The teaching they do tends to be sterile. It's an education that you could get, if you worked at it, without ever entering a classroom. In fact, at most large universities, it can be pretty difficult to get a conference with your professor. I've heard of professors who are so enamored with their research and so contemptuous of their teaching duties that their conference schedule is once per week, for a half-hour, and only by phone!

By contrast, the last university I attended, a noted liberal arts school (Gonzaga University), I could find a professor of any subject I chose, in his or her office, any time of the day, happy to answer my questions.

In short, "liberal arts" schools are schools whose focus is on teaching and students and critical thought. The rest are diploma mills.

[Tishabet]

I went to one (Hamilton College '02), double majored in Computer Science and English, and now I'm the project manager/team lead for a team of software developers (8 currently). Most of them went to big universities (think MIT, Carnegie, Stanford).
If I had to define a "liberal arts" school, it would be a college which accentuates roundness in subjects. The curriculum itself is also more oriented to broad, foundational skills and knowledge vs. job application skills.
For example, my CS courses were predominantly taught on the chalk board. Our curriculum was on stuff like data structure, finite automota, turing machines, breadboarding, finite language sets, discrete theory, kernel level system software, etc. In contrast, the Carnegie and MIT guys I know had 4 years of very advanced programming, but wouldn't know how to build a compiler or anything like that.
Yes I'm painting in broad strokes, but this has been my experience.

[charlesbahn]

I disagree. The cost of education is huge, especially at the Ivy league schools, but the cost of not educating the kids is in the end much higher. My son went to Colby. They told us that it would cost a lot and they wern't very successful with the kids' first jobs- most don't stay in their first job. But they told us they were very successful when it came to the kids' careers. They were right. My son initially worked at a beer brewery, must have drank up all the profits. Then he went to law school, got a great job, etc, etc.

In general, I think you get what you pay for in education. The better the education, the better the chance of a well balanced career (and life). Just my 0.02.

[legion]

Originally posted by Superman
Most large, well-known universities do more research than teaching. The teaching they do tends to be sterile. It's an education that you could get, if you worked at it, without ever entering a classroom. In fact, at most large universities, it can be pretty difficult to get a conference with your professor. I've heard of professors who are so enamored with their research and so contemptuous of their teaching duties that their conference schedule is once per week, for a half-hour, and only by phone!

I went to a large state school (Illinois State - about 20,000 undergrads). Professors in my college (College of Business) were required to have something like two hours of office hours (conference time) each day! Then again, this particular school emphasized teaching over research...U of I is less than 50 miles away so it's hard to compete with them on research. I only had two classes taught by graduate students my entire four years there. Sure, some classes like Econ 101 had 400 people in them, but by senior year none of my classes exceeded 20 people. After I got my "general education" requirements out of the way, I made a point to introduce myself to each and every professor I had. (That really helped later on when I needed recommendations to get into certain classes.) Bottom line, there are some large state schools out there that are not research-driven.

[Big Ed]

I am a Williams alumnus. You could study hard sciences, but there were no majors that specifically suggested a specific vocational future: e.g. engineering, business management, accounting -- these majors did not exist.

In fact, while a major course of study was required, it was a small % of your overall course load unless you chose to more heavily concentrate. I'd say about 25% of my course work was in my major of Psychology. We were really encouraged to study a broad spectrum of subjects. The philosophy of education there was to teach critical thinking skills across a variety of subjects, as opposed to a mastery of any one subject.

Perhaps not surprisingly, some insanely high percentage (greater than half if memory serves) of my graduating class eventually went on to post graduate study. I was in business, so I chose an MBA program. I found the coursework quite easy by comparison, but very necessary for my professional growth. For example, I had never been exposed to any accounting or finance until my grad work.

I loved my undergraduate experience. Having said that, someone going that route is probably in for some additional study, unless he's looking to be a politician (we had more than a few of those, as well).

[speeder]

You could at least come up w/ a new fake name that does not start w/ "M".

Just for the record, I've never complained about anyone here or PM'ed a moderator, (save for once and it wasn't you), but you are showing your complete contempt and disrespect for the owner of this BBS who gave you so much free bandwidth and a worldwide audience TWICE to spew whatever came "to mind". It really shows lack of character to thumb your nose like this just because you are "beyond banning" or something, I've only seen it once or twice before and the person only did it on the first day they were banned.

This is an opportunity to go away w/ at least a tiny shred of dignity by not weaseling around @ 6AM before the moderators wake up.

[jyl]

Originally posted by speeder
You could at least come up w/ a new fake name that does not start w/ "M".

I was thinking axactly the same thing.

Mr. "Mumbasa", why don't you introduce yourself and tell us something about you? Name, location, occupation, prevous history on this forum.

[onlycafe]

i was kicked out of windham college in vermont back in 1970.
my next stop was in nyc as a cab driver. fired a year and a half later , that is a story in itself.
have been running a small restaurant up in central new york for the last 20 years,no time off for good behaviour. as a matter of fact a goodly number of my customers are hamilton college students.
i should add that i was also kicked out of new rochelle high school, all the teachers and counsellors that predicted no good end for me are so far still dead and i am the vice president of our library board. also served two terms on the local zba. even got 5% of the write in vote for mayor last election. all i can say is that edumacation is over rated.

[speeder]

For every story of someone who has a great life in spite of lack of education there are 100 stories of people who got thrown under the bus because of it. And 1000 stories of success from education.

I'm happy for you, but the numbers don't lie. Income and lifestyle are directly correlated to degree/lack of in the United States and most other places that are developed.

[Nathans_Dad]

I'm going to start a "conservative arts" college. You can major in:

How to Impose Your Bigoted Religious Beliefs on Others

OR

How to Line Your Pockets by Getting into Bed with Big Oil while Sticking it to the Poor Man

[onlycafe]

let me rephrase that last sentence.
organised education is over rated, find out what floats your boat and learn all you can about it. i have taught myself a lot of things over the years. as far as a degree opening doors for you, o k . perhaps in some fields it may be necessary, thus far not for me.

[tobster1911]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
I'm going to start a "conservative arts" college. You can major in:

How to Impose Your Bigoted Religious Beliefs on Others

OR

How to Line Your Pockets by Getting into Bed with Big Oil while Sticking it to the Poor Man

I am looking to double major. Do you offer scholarships or should I get Government funding?

[sroeser]

GO EPHS!!!

As a Williams alum (1990) with a degree in German Studies, I couldn't agree more with Big Ed.

In retrospect, I sometimes wish I could take my 38 yo mind and go back to undergrad and do it all again...er...the classes I mean.

Except for accounting, finance and statistics, I felt it gave me a real advantage when I was getting my MBA.

Upon graduation my classmates went into the following areas:
-- Investment Banking, etc.
-- Grad school => MBA, PhD
-- Teaching/Coaching at private schools
-- Artists/Writers, etc.

It was a great experience, except for the chicks. (isn't it always the deciding factor)

They were kind of stand-offish, not very friendly, and didn't really smile. It made the weekend trips to Smith much more fun.

My dad also went to Williams in the mid '60s when it was single sex and the fraternities used to bus women in from the surrounding colleges. There was never any homework on the weekends because...well you know.

BTW, it turned co-ed in 1969. Go figure.

We had a little saying about the women:

Smith to bed,
Wellesley to wed,
You can m(M)ount Holyoke,
but only talk to Williams

I think that pretty much sums it all up.

[nostatic]

Actually I think Mumbasa is the other recent bannee (nine_one_4 aka Alfred), and his other inflammatory threads have been removed. This one actually is an opportunity to dispell some misunderstandings.

You need to make a distinction between a liberal arts college (or university), and a liberal arts degree. A liberal arts degree varies widely depending on institution, but usually is a broad-based set of courses. My g/f did a "social studies diploma" program at Harvard, and it would qualify as a "liberal arts" degree. Bascially you learn a little about a lot, and try to understand how the world and society works.

A liberal arts college is an institution that generally does not grant B.S. degrees, instead focusing on B.A. degrees and a broader set of general education courses. At most liberal arts colleges you can major in most anything including the hard sciences (my B.A. in chemistry is from a liberal arts university), but your GE requirements will have more breadth and depth, at the expense of courses in the major (hence the B.A. rather than a B.S.). Liberal arts institutions are usually smaller and private. I think they are the preferred education route, especially for students that are not especially forward/brash/demanding. At most liberal arts schools you get more personalized attention and resources. At larger state schools, only the best and pushiest get those things. There are other advantages at large state schools, but you have to aggressively pursue them.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
I went to an Ivy League graduate school, and we had a few Williams grads there. Being a native Californian, I didn't know much about Williams, but everyone else was very impressed with Williams. About 1/3 of my class had undergrad degrees from various Ivy League schools, and they all seemed to think very highly of Williams.

As it turned out, the guy who ended up graduating No. 1 in our class was a Williams undergrad.

If you look at the top grad school programs, you see a disproportionate number of students from the "elite" liberal arts schools. There is a reason for that...

[M.D. Holloway]

Williams is one of the best schools in the country - maybe the best. I know a few people who went there and they are very well read but unlike most from the Ivys (Williams is not Ivy), they also have a certain attitude which is not that they are better than anyone else, actually just the opposit they act like they are less but always appear more - doesn't make sense unless you meet one. Kinda like playing a round of golf with a scratch golfer and all they do is praise your game and complain about how bad they are shooting.

Enough already, get some of the same attitude that someone from MIT or Yale has - they know they are smart and they don't mind letting the rest of the world know it.