Nine more dead American Soldiers ....

[Rodeo]

Nine more dead Americans, on Sunday alone. When is this insanity going to stop?

George Bush has our men and women fighting and dying to prop up a terrorist regime in Iraq! At the same time we are fighting the Sunni "insurgents," we are fighting the Shiite militias connected to the government we are trying to "save!"

It's fcuking insanity!

August 29, 2006
Radical Militia and Iraqi Army in Fierce Battle

By DAMIEN CAVE and EDWARD WONG

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Aug. 28 — At least 20 gunmen and 8 civilians were killed Monday when the Iraqi Army battled fiercely for hours with members of a militia loyal to Moktada al-Sadr, the radical Shiite cleric, in Diwaniya, Iraqi officials said.

The violence, which one Iraqi general said included militiamen executing Iraqi soldiers in a public square, amounted to the most brazen clashes in recent memory between Iraqi government forces and Mr. Sadr’s militia.

After weeks of rising tensions and skirmishes between elements of the militia and American-led forces, it could increase pressure on Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki, a conservative Shiite, to find a way — political or military or both — to rein in Mr. Sadr’s powerful militia.

The battle erupted after a particularly violent weekend in Iraq for American soldiers and Iraqi civilians, in what had been a relatively quiet month.

The American military announced Monday the deaths of nine American service members in attacks on Sunday. In Baghdad, a car bomb killed at least 13 people on Monday and wounded dozens at a checkpoint just outside the Interior Ministry headquarters.

Over all, more than 100 Iraqis were killed Sunday and Monday.

With sectarian violence soaring, American generals and the American ambassador, Zalmay Khalilzad, say that militias are now the single greatest threat to the stability of Iraq and that the Iraqi government must disband them.

But Mr. Maliki has yet to introduce any new policy, and has refrained from strong condemnations of Mr. Sadr’s militia, the Mahdi Army. Mr. Maliki relies on Mr. Sadr, who is enormously popular among poor Shiites, for political support against rival Shiite politicians. Mr. Sadr controls several ministries and at least 30 seats in Parliament, and he maintains close ties to Mr. Maliki’s political group, the Islamic Dawa Party.

Earlier this month, after the Americans called in air support during a raid with Iraqi forces in a Sadr stronghold in Baghdad, Mr. Maliki denounced the move by the Americans and said he had never given permission for it.

The fighting on Monday in Diwaniya, in the south, underscored the recalcitrant, rebellious nature of the Mahdi Army and raised the specter of the two uprisings that Mr. Sadr led against the Americans and the Iraqi government in 2004.

After several hours of gunfire and mortars, “the clashes reached a point where members of the militias executed soldiers after their ammunition ran out in a public square, in front of residents,” said Maj. Gen. Othman al-Ghanimi, commander of the Eighth Division of the Iraqi Army in Diwaniya. “This is true terrorism and a crime.”

The Mahdi Army denied the reports of executions.

The fighting ended only after Shiite politicians visited Mr. Sadr’s office in Najaf to negotiate a cease-fire.

An American military official said more than 70 people were wounded Monday during the battle, including 40 civilians. Reports from Iraqi authorities and Sadr officials offered similar tallies.

General Ghanimi and other Iraqi Army and police officials said several militias were involved, not just the Mahdi Army. But they said the seed of the violence on Monday was planted a week ago when a roadside bomb they believe was planted by the Mahdi Army killed at least two Iraqi soldiers. Two days later, the Iraqi Army arrested a member of the Mahdi Army.

Nasir al-Saadi, a spokesman for the Sadr bloc in Parliament, said the unidentified Sadr militant arrested by the army was tortured and may have been killed. According to Mr. Saadi’s account, the army started attacking a Mahdi-dominated neighborhood late Sunday night. He said the soldiers killed civilians and damaged houses while Sadr militants “did not participate” at first, refusing to return fire.

General Ghanimi, a Sunni, denied torturing the Mahdi detainee, noting that Sadr representatives visited him on Saturday and found him healthy. He said they asked for the accused bomber’s release and when the army refused, fighting broke out as the militias sought to free him from custody.

Gunfire riddled the streets from around 2 a.m. to the early afternoon. Polish troops responsible for the area helped Iraqi soldiers encircle the most violent areas, as American helicopters hovered overhead without dropping bombs, according to an American official who declined to be identified because the information is supposed to be released by the Iraqi Army.

Khalil Jalil Hamza, the governor of Diwaniya, later shuttled to Mr. Sadr’s headquarters in Najaf to discuss a cease-fire, Sadr officials said. By 5:30 p.m., the battle had ended. Mr. Hamza is a senior official in the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, a rival Shiite party.

The Mahdi Army and the military wing of the Supreme Council, the Badr Brigade, have fought pitched battles several times in Baghdad and the south in recent years.

According to someone who identified himself as a Mahdi fighter involved in the clash, a prisoner exchange was still being negotiated Monday night. In a telephone interview, the fighter, who called himself Abu Abbas, said the Mahdi Army had taken several soldiers captive and would trade them for the detainee that Iraqi commanders accused of being involved in the roadside bombing. He was reached through a known member of the Mahdi Army, who vouched for his membership.

He said that a local judge had approved the militant’s release before the fighting started but that the Iraqi Army refused to accept the ruling. When asked why the Mahdi militants killed more than a dozen other Iraqis, he said, “We know they are our brothers, but the Americans are pushing them against us.”

Iraqi, American and British officials continue to assert that a civil war here can be averted.

Maj. Gen. William B. Caldwell IV, the lead spokesman for the American military, said Monday that attacks and murders in Baghdad declined in August thanks to the deployment of about 12,000 additional American and Iraqi troops. He said several neighborhoods searched over the past few weeks under a new security plan were reviving, with stores re-opening, and children riding bicycles in the streets.

Yet Mr. Sadr and the Mahdi Army remain an obstacle. Prime Minister Maliki, a Shiite who depends on support from Mr. Sadr’s allies in Parliament, has not confronted Mr. Sadr publicly. Sadr City, a Mahdi bastion, has not been searched or raided in a thorough manner, even though it is one of the capital’s most violent areas.

The Americans have maintained some distance: even as the fighting raged in Diwaniya on Monday, General Caldwell told reporters he had not been briefed on the battle and could not comment.

Several clashes have erupted between the Mahdi Army and American-led forces this summer.

In July, American and Iraqi troops stormed a building in Sadr City and engaged in firefights that killed or wounded 30 to 40 gunmen before capturing a militia commander. Days later, British troops raided Al Garma, a town near the southern port at Basra, and detained a Sadr official, Sajad Badr al-Sukany. At least one British soldier was killed in the operation.

Ambassador Khalilzad said in an interview this month that Iran had been inciting splinter groups of the Mahdi Army to step up attacks against American-led forces in retaliation for the Israeli attacks in Lebanon.

General Caldwell said days later that some militia elements had been training in Iran and had received weapons from groups or individuals in Iran, though it was unclear whether the Iranian government was involved.

The battle in Diwaniya took place on a particularly bloody day for Iraqi forces. The car bombing in Baghdad killed at least a dozen Interior Ministry police officers, and wounded at least 35 other officers, a ministry official said. Another policeman was killed when a roadside bomb exploded in southern Baghdad.

In Mosul, the authorities said an Iraqi policeman was gunned down in front of his house, while the police killed one insurgent in a separate clash.

Of the nine American soldiers killed Sunday, four died after their armored Stryker unit was ambushed by a bomb and gunfire in Ghazaliya, a western Baghdad neighborhood that was part of the new security plan and had been described as a model of improved security. Three were killed in two separate roadside bomb attacks, and one from small-arms fire in or near Baghdad. One was killed in Anbar Province.

Defense Minister Abdul Qader Mohammed Jasim, at a joint news conference with the British defense secretary, said the Iraqi government would do everything it could to make the country safe.

“There are criminals and killers — we know the scum who wear the mask of the jihad and religion,” Mr. Jasim said. “They used to kill people as criminals and now they kill them under the cover of jihad.”

Reporting for this article was contributed by Khalid al-Ansary, Abdul Razzaq al-Saiedi, Khalid W. Hassan, Omar al-Neami and Qais Mizher.

[azasadny]

How many did we lose in Vietnam? 5000 or more? I'm guessing we'll lose at least that many in this rathole...

[Tobra]

I know exactly when it will stop.

When every single muslim extremist has gone to see Allah, in other words, never.

We will eventually get all our troops out of there, just like WW II and Korea, no wait, we still have troops in Germany, Japan and Korea.

The "insanity" will continue in the ME until we pull out, then it will be continued here in North America.

[coloradoporsche]

53,000+

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by Tobra
The "insanity" will continue in the ME until we pull out, then it will be continued here in North America.

Right ... there's no way they can attack us here, since every available Muslim terrorist in the world is tied up in Iraq.

That's the kind of stellar thinking that got us into this mess in the first place.

[Hugh R]

We should get out and let the Iraqi's have their own civil war and if gasoline goes to $5/gallon, oh well, at least I can (sort of) afford it.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

I think I'll go look at H2s this afternoon. I really NEED one to carry my 2 kids and my dog around town on errands. Plus in a few years I can give it to my son so he'll be safe. Young drivers tend to get in accidents and it'd be nice to know he's all nice and safe in his 7,000-pound bunker. . .

[Rodeo]

Here, since you apparently didn't even read the piece I posted. Think you can get through 2 paragraphs?

"But Mr. Maliki has yet to introduce any new policy, and has refrained from strong condemnations of Mr. Sadr’s militia, the Mahdi Army. Mr. Maliki relies on Mr. Sadr, who is enormously popular among poor Shiites, for political support against rival Shiite politicians. Mr. Sadr controls several ministries and at least 30 seats in Parliament, and he maintains close ties to Mr. Maliki’s political group, the Islamic Dawa Party.

Earlier this month, after the Americans called in air support during a raid with Iraqi forces in a Sadr stronghold in Baghdad, Mr. Maliki denounced the move by the Americans and said he had never given permission for it."

[Rodeo]

There are no good guys. We are fighting bad guys on behalf of bad guys.

Meanwhile, the baddest of them all, Iran, pulls the strings and watches as we devote men and incredible resources to what will become their sister country as soon as we leave.

Iran gets stronger while we get weaker. Every day.

[Rodeo]

*** life isn't as bad as you think.

It is for the families of those nine soldiers that died on Sunday, fighting for the terrorist government of Iraq.

I guess I don't understand how any American, how EVERY American, is not outraged at this.

[Moneyguy1]

Given that the citizens of Iraq have lived under various forms of non-democratic governments for decades, how can we possibly conclude that they understand the concept of democracy at this early stage?

[tabs]

Rodeo your a weak sister. Human kind has being killing each other in stupid wars since warfare began thousands of years ago.

One question Rodeo how many lives would U be willing to sacrafice on the alter of the Gods of War to keep your Standard of Living...THIS IS A EITHER OR PROPOSTION. either U have the LIfe Style you have now or you live like Teddy Kozinski was in Montana...without electricity, cars, running water, indoor plumbing. etc.

Figure it this way America is dependent on Oil. If for instance the supply of Oil to America is cut by 2/3. What happens to our economy. What would the price of a barrel of Oil be...$200 ...$300... $400 a barrel. Could U afford to even start your car, could you afford to turn the electric lights on or even the heat on in the winter.

Sorry living here in America U enjoy a opulent lifestyle even if your Middle Class..and sometimes sombody has to pay your way with their blood. Nothing is for free.

[azasadny]

Originally posted by azasadny
How many did we lose in Vietnam? 5000 or more? I'm guessing we'll lose at least that many in this rathole...

Wow, did I ever mistype that! I meant to type "50,000" not "5,000". Can you imagine losing 53,000+ lives in Vietnam? Will we lose that many in Iraq? I'm betting that we will and will have troops there for 50 years, like S. Korea, Germany, Japan, etc...

[techweenie]

Originally posted by tabs
Rodeo your a weak sister. Human kind has being killing each other in stupid wars since warfare began thousands of years ago.

One question Rodeo how many lives would U be willing to sacrafice on the alter of the Gods of War to keep your Standard of Living...THIS IS A EITHER OR PROPOSTION. either U have the LIfe Style you have now or you live like Teddy Kozinski was in Montana...without electricity, cars, running water, indoor plumbing. etc.

Figure it this way America is dependent on Oil. If for instance the supply of Oil to America is cut by 2/3. What happens to our economy. What would the price of a barrel of Oil be...$200 ...$300... $400 a barrel. Could U afford to even start your car, could you afford to turn the electric lights on or even the heat on in the winter.

Sorry living here in America U enjoy a opulent lifestyle even if your Middle Class..and sometimes sombody has to pay your way with their blood. Nothing is for free.

Just about everything in your post is true. But none of it applies to Iraq.

Dubya has perpetuated the Republican concept of "discretionary war." Americans are dying for a misguided whim.

[Moneyguy1]

tabs..

Didn't you say recently that there is no middle class?

Also..it is far more than an either/or proposition, since there are alternatives available that, within a reasonable time frame could reduce that foreign dependence which, if I recall correctly, is nowhere near 2/3. Not to mention that at no time has this or previous administrations actively imposed "sacrifices" even near those imposed in WW II. The Germans used to call it "guns or butter". How long can our economy exist supplying both?

Did I misunderstand? Enlighten me, o Master Buffeteer.....

[tabs]

Yes it NOW does apply to Iraq. Since Bush "Broke" the place we now own it, and are responsible for gluing it back together somehow.

American Troops act as a wet blanket in Iraq, it keeps the fire of Civil War at a smoldering level instead of a raging inferno that could very easily consume theentire Region. Which would cause the flow of oil to be greatly destabilized and the prices to go to new heights. All with dire consquences for the World economy.

[tabs]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
tabs..

Didn't you say recently that there is no middle class?

Also..it is far more than an either/or proposition, since there are alternatives available that, within a reasonable time frame could reduce that foreign dependence which, if I recall correctly, is nowhere near 2/3. Not to mention that at no time has this or previous administrations actively imposed "sacrifices" even near those imposed in WW II. The Germans used to call it "guns or butter". How long can our economy exist supplying both?

Did I misunderstand? Enlighten me, o Master Buffeteer.....

I said the Middle Class is shrinking...DEEDEEE was the one that said there is No MC.

"reasonable amount of time" ...What do U do in between. The economy would shrink beyond imagine in that short period of time.

What is the percentage of World Oil Supply that comes out of the ME? If that supply were cut or even diminshied the remaining supply would have to be divided up among the rest of the world. Based upon a supply and demand curve would you even hazard a guess at what a barrel of oil would go to?

Since the 1960s and LBJ the USA has run its Government on the premise that America could have both "Guns and Butter" meaning that there was no need to sacrafice even a little bit of lifestyle for American security.

Well like I said there is no free lunch, and we are paying for it in other hidden ways.

[Rodeo]

tabby has come up with justification #47 for the war ... to keep the oil flowing, and cheap.

Some of us thought oil was at the root of this from the beginning, so congrats to tabby. You closed the loop. We've come full circle.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Rodeo
tabby has come up with justification #47 for the war ... to keep the oil flowing, and cheap.

Some of us thought oil was at the root of this from the beginning, so congrats to tabby. You closed the loop. We've come full circle.

This is what we call a Double Bind or Catch-22 .

[Rodeo]

And to those that persist in calling me week-kneed because I don't want any more Americans to die in Iraq, you are way, way off the mark.

I'm not some hippie stuffing daisies into the barrel of a gun, as much as you would like to paint me that way. I've fought my whole life, and have never backed down from the use of force when appropriate.

It's just not appropriate to use American military force to prop up an enemy state, ok? It's Alice-in-Wonderland insane.

So stop with the "wussy" jabs ... I'm not calling you stupid for wanting our guys to fight for the enemy instead of against them, and that insult would be much closer to the truth.