Rick,

The Internet sales guy simply doesn't "get it," does he? Reminds me of a story....

3 years ago I bought a new BMW X5, which was a mistake. I never really warmed up to the sport-ute, hated driving the monstrosity around. Not sure what I was thinking. Anyway, after several months I decided to investigate trading it, knowing full well I'd take a big hit.

I was considering an Audi S4, so I emailed one of the "big" dealers nearest me and explained my situation. I was right up front, stating that I knew full well I would be taking a bath on the trade but could they give me a feel for what it might be worth? I described it fully and said that I understood they'd need to see it in person to give a hard value, but asked if they would just "ballpark" me.

Almost instantly got a call from a salesman, who was very nice, asked a couple questions and said he'd call me back. Except he never did. The next day I get an email from a "sales manager" telling me to come into the dealership and they could give me a quote. I wrote back and explained that I was an hour away by car, and went through my whole spiel again about how I know they can't give firm values sight unseen and all, but give me a feeling plus or minus 5 grand or so. (The X5 was a stickshift and also still the current model year, which made it hard to value online.)

He writes back that he can't really do that, it wouldn't be "fair to me," he's got to see the vehicle in order to be sure he can give me top dollar or some such crap. At this point, I reply to him and tell him to go screw, one of his guys told me by phone yesterday that they would be happy to help (although they didn't), and that I didn't want to travel an hour only to have them tell me a value which made it impossible for me to trade.

The guy wrote me back with a string of profanity, which I couldn't believe. How nice is that? A couple months later when I did buy an S4 from their competitor, I mailed a copy of the email and my sales contract from the other dealer to the owner of the first dealership. Never got a reply.

Exactly Big Ed...your story is precisely why car dealers have the reputation they do. If they were straight with people then we wouldn't have to feel like you had to go into a dealership loaded for bear.

Car dealers have the right to try and make as much money off of a car as they can, it's capitalism. If someone walks in and wants to pay sticker price for a car, then more power to them.

I think, however, that part of being a good salesman is knowing your customer. When I walk into a dealer and make it pretty clear that I know what the invoice price is and want to pay no more than $500 over that price, then they should adjust to that, right? Don't come back with your cookie cutter, rake me over the coals, deal if you KNOW that I am an informed consumer. Just treat me with respect and make me a decent offer on the price of the car. It really isn't that hard. Heck, I don't even try to squeeze every last dollar out of the deal like some do. I'll throw them $200 or $300 extra if it means I get the deal done and can get on with my day.

Like I said in the e-mail, my experience at Covert Ford was the exact opposite of this dealership. I test drove the car, sat down with the salesman, he pulled the invoice price off the computer and printed it up (it was the actual invoice too, at least according to the internet). Then he asked for $750 over invoice and I offered $500 (Ford has a $500 factory rebate for active duty military so I ended up paying invoice price). He took it. Total deal took 5 minutes. Paperwork was done in about an hour and I took my family out to lunch while they detailed and tinted the car. Picked it up 2 hours later and drove home. Painless process and the dealer made $500 before holdback.

Rick,

Same story here when we were buying our last car in August 2004. Went to local Subaru, after I had called to see if the specific car and color combination was there, they said yes; but of course, they did not have the car. Then they asked if they could find the car and I gave them my price and said go ahead. Long story short, wasted an hour as they played the game, went thru two salesmen.

Went down the street to Volvo, and I said I wanted to buy a car and what was their best deal, and briefly told them about Subaru. Right off the bat they discounted the $32k 2004 wagon down $5500 Volvo incentive, then another $500 for AARP, then I got another $2000 from dealer. Now, that was nice.

I complained to Subaru USA, and when my daughter is home and needs service on her Subaru, we drive 30 miles to the next dealer.

I think August is probably the best month with factory incentives.

i've got a story where I ended up screaming and my ex was in tears. We were looking for a Prelude for her. It was difficult to find what she wanted (silver, non-SH model). I called all over the place, and the Honda dealer in NoHo said they had one, come on down. We went with cehck book in hand. This was pre-Edmunds, but I had the invoice price from AAA. I was willing to do $500 over invoice...these cars were not flying off the lots. We drive from Claremont to NoHo....about an hour.

Get there and there is a white SH sitting ready for a drive. Not what I asked for. Salesman says, "don't worry, its at our storage lot in Valencia (40 minute drive away) and a lot guy is bringing it back. You can test drive this one though. So we go for the test drive. Car is fine...it's what she wants. We get back and I ask about the car. "It's on the way." OK, so we start to hammer on the price. I tell him I'm going to write a check for the car in full and I"m willing to pay $500 over invoice. Period. He comes back with the 4-corner sheet...the classic sales tool. It is big numbers in felt marker showing trade, sticker, discount and monthy payment.

I say, "no, you don't understand. I'm writing you a check for the full amount. And if is very simple. I'm willing to pay this amount. You say yes or no. Period. I don't want to haggle." He wanders off to the sale's manager office and comes back with another 4-corner and a lower monthly. I get up to leave. He says, "no wait, I'm just trying to get you the best deal." I said, "no, you're not listening. I'm paying cash. I'm willing to pay $500 over invoice. You say yes or no. And where is the car?"

He says the car is on the way and goes back to the sales manager's office. He comes back with a price that is $200 off of sticker. I ask if that is he best price. He says yes. I get up to leave. He says wait, I say, no I told you $500 over invoice and we aren't even close. We're walking out and he's begging us to stay. We go back for one more round. He comes back with $500 off sticker...still over $1K over what I said I'd pay. We get up to leave, he comes running after us again, and some saleman leaning against the wall says, in a snide tone, "well, you must be special." My ex starts crying at that point, and I get in the face of that salesperson and scream, "is this your deal? Why don't you shut the hell up?" Then I go into the sales manager's office and gave him an earful. Then called and asked to speak with the owner.

And the car never showed up in the hour we were there.

Got on the phone to a dealer in Ontario. Told him what we wanted, he said he didn't have it but would transfer it and have it tomorrow. I said I'd pay $500 over invoice. He said I can't do that but I can do $700, and the car will be here for you tomorrow.

Next day we walked in. Car was prepped and ready. Wrote a check and 30 minutes later were on our way. Never again the othe way. Bought the Subie all by email. Screw the walk-in predators...

It really depends. If there's a new/facelifted model coming out the next model year, you can get pretty decent deals on the 'old model' in Aug/Sep/Oct.

There are also good deals to be had during year end - auto makers scramble to get their volume counts up. That's why I got a good deal on my wife's New Beetle - I forgot to mention - the reason the June 30th date was important is because that was their year end close. (Note: most car companies have a December 31st year end close.)

Buying mid-week during a slow month will also be helpful. Buying a car that's difficult for the dealership to sell is also helpful - stuff that's been sitting in their lot for too long turns into a negative number for them.

Most importantly - be an informed buyer - know as much about the car as possible.

-Z

Other than money, one reason I usually buy an "appliance" car, then keep it until it falls apart? I hate going to a car dealership...
(To me cars fall into 2 catagories. "Toy" cars, like my old Porsche, then "appliance" cars...to be bought, and used, much like a washing machine.)

All the more reason I'll never buy a new car. People accept this kind of crap as "normal"?!?! No thanks.

Some of the best advice I've ever heard is to find the vehicle you want ahead of time (make, model, options, etc.) and then send (via fax) a correspondance to several local dealers stating that you're looking for such-and-such a vehicle with those options and request that they please fax you their best offer. Also state that any effort to "follow up" or otherwise initiate unsolicited contact will automatically exclude them from consideration, regardless of their "bid" against other dealers in the area. In that way, you get several bona-fide offers and you won't have to deal with the crap of wasting time running around to a dozen dealerships. Make them work for you. You're the customer. You're paying them. They need to earn your business - they're not entitled to it - much though they might want you to believe this.

Haven't tried it, but I know a couple of people that have and claim it works well. You pick the best price and walk into the dealership with offer (written, hard for them to weasel out of) in hand, no B.S., no haggling and drive out with what you want.

I can find the invoice cost of a car, where do you find the incentives currently being offered?

v/r
Wayne C.

Mini hijack..

azasadny:

Empty your mail box. Says it is full!!

edmunds.com usually has incentives for a particular model listed.

I'm in an email conversation with the local "internet" salesman at a VW dealership. I'll let you know how it goes. I've already stated my position on haggling, etc. So far he has offered to pick me up so I can do a test drive (I live about 2 miles from the dealer). Of course he didn't say that he'd take me back *home*.... ;)

I got my info off of edmunds.com. That will give you a rundown of the publicly advertised incentives.

Sometimes there are special factory to dealer incentives that they don't advertise. There are some services that claim to have access to this info, it usually costs you $25-30 for the report on the car. I didn't bother with the Mustang.

Finally there is something called dealer holdback. Basically the dealer has to pay interest on the car to have it on his lot. They don't buy the car from the factory, they get a loan for the amount. They have to pay 3% of the MSRP up front to get the car. That is the holdback. If they sell the car in 30 days or less they get all the holdback as profit. Every 30 days, 1/3 of the holdback is taken by the lender as interest on the loan. If it takes the dealer 3 months to sell the car, he has no holdback left. So, how much holdback the dealer gets is dependent on how long the car has sat on the lot.

I bought my Miata by emailing the various local Mazda dealers directly. Told them what I wanted and asked for their best price. I mentioned that I was emailing all local dealers and didn't care which one I bought from. Got quotes from most, with the lowest being from the dealer in Thousand Oaks. I accepted his offer ($100 over invoice), he called when the car came in, and I went to complete the transaction. I fully expected them to tell me that something came up, and that they couldn't do the deal for what was quoted, etc. Never happened. I went in, we signed the paperwork, and I was on my way. They didn't even try to sell me extended warranties or other BS. It was the best experience I've had buying a car.

The "fax attack" or alternate "e-mail attack" does work very well. It puts the dealers in the position of competing with each other. You can usually get a pretty good deal this way, the key is to make very clear that you are contacting all the dealers in an X mile radius (the larger the better) and the lowest bidder wins. Some dealers refuse to deal this way, but when we bought our Tahoe I got replys from about 60% of the dealers I contacted. Ended up paying below invoice for a year old Tahoe (same time of year, year end clearance).

Clarification on holdback:

The dealer pays the invoiced amount (invoice), and when the car sells, they get the holdback (although it can take a while). Why bother? There can be several months from the time the car is 'invoiced' and paid for, to the time the car sells. The manufacturer has used the dealer's money (holdback) to finance production of the next units. Even though holdbacks are 2-3%, if the average car is $25,000, that's the free use of $600 times hundreds of thousands of cars for months at a time.

Dealers typically have a loan on their new-car inventory. This is called their 'floorplan'. Manufacturers will give floorplan credits, which is somewhat as you describe. They do this to entice dealers to order more cars. Some floorplan providers will also float the first 30 days interest free, also as an enticement for dealers to spend more. Most new car franchises have floorplans provided by the manufacturer's finance arm (Ford Credit, GMAC, Honda Credit, etc.)

Yeah, what he said...

:D

I've had my share of awful dealer experiences. Walked out fuming, wife in tears, huge wastes of time, once asked for "one dollar" as a sign of my commitment to the haggling process, broken promises, yada, yada.

Here are my current examples of better dealer behavior:

1) Bought a car through the Costco dealer program. Basically you get transferred into the Fleet or Internet sales guy. He has a fixed price which is $x over invoice. Shows you invoice and the markup (if any). We went to the Volvo dealer to buy an XC90 AWD. There was a promotion on the premium package which made it a pretty good deal and was quoted a really good price on the phone. Got to the dealership, went to see the car, it was a 2WD version. I was pissed - thought "here we go again". But he apologized, admitted his mistake. Found us a AWD, but it had more goodies than I wanted (until I got them, boy they are sweet!). Okay, I'll take the deluxe stereo, backup stuff, etc (all in a package), but I said that I wouldn't pay for the upgraded 18" wheels. He said fine, crossed it off. When they delivered the car, it still had the 18's. I pointed this out and was told, "No mistake, they are yours. Sorry for the confusion." Jaw hanging open (it was like $2K), we drove off the lot.

2) 05 Mini Cooper S. At the time, these were by order only, wait 6 weeks to 9 months depending on dealer allocation. CA dealers were charging 10-20% over MSRP, even with cash in hand I couldn't get one dealer to halve the markup. I picked my configuration (great online tool at mini.com), then sent an email to every major metropolitan mini dealer in the country (anywhere near a big airport). Asked for a price and delivery schedule. About half responded. Some would sell at MSRP, but had 6 month plus waits. Down to a dealer in LV and one in Chicago. Out the door price within a few hundred - LV dealer cheaper. I asked again about any "documentation fees" - "Oh yeah, there's a $300 documentation fee." BS - dropped him like a hot rock. The Chicago dealer did the entire process by email and fax, I sent a deposit by credit card. Got a completed sales contract with the agreed price. Six weeks go by and the car is there. Fly to Chicago, the sales guy drives out to O'Hare to pick me up. At the dealership, I'm about to meet with the finance guy to sign the paperwork and hand over the check - the sales guy pulls me aside and says, "I'm so sorry I didn't have a change to talk with you before you flew out, but there is a difference in the sales contract you are about to see and the one I sent you." And I'm thinking "oh no, here we go again." He says, "The laws just changed and we need to collect some of the California sales tax here instead of you paying all of it back in CA. Just wanted to explain it to you up front so there would not be a surprise." Jaw hanging open, I walk into the finance guy, expecting to be sold the Teflon carpet treatment and extended warranties. Nope - he starts to explain the super duper extended warranties, but then says, "You are in California, so these won't be effective for you. Go ahead an initial here and decline them." I hand the check over and I'm done. Oh, and I got 10% off all the accessories for mentioning I saw their ad on a BBS. And he kept calling me on the way home to make sure everything was okay. I live in California - what are the odds I'll refer him to someone else? Well, I did. And I flew back out and drove another Mini back for a friend. The sales guy sent me a $100 check for a referral. Patrick Mini. Best car buying experience I've ever had (x2).


Have any of you seen King of Cars? That's an eye-opening experience on how most folks go to buy cars. "And what is the payment going to be?" Singular focus on the payment amount - not the price, not the interest rate, not the term. Only, "Can I buy this Dodge Magnum for $399 a month?" Bleah.

If you guys want to experience what Nathan described without leaving the comfort of your Lazyboy, tune into A&E's new show - King of Cars. It's one of these semi-reality shows about some homeboy wannabee (I think his name is "Chop") who runs this huge dealership with about 50 salesman. After watching about 20 minutes of this, I was amazed that ANYONE would actually buy a car from this place.

Here's an accurate review of the show:

http://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/archives/other_shows/2006_Apr_04_ae_king_of_cars

I might not understand this...but, does this mean if you special order a car (pay for it beforehand) you should be able to get a greater discount?

Wayne

It's sad really. We as a society make a game of making price the only issue when deciding where to buy. Margins are sliced so thin that the service suffers and then we complain about the poor service. Some people feel screwed when a store makes money, yet demand top-notch service and a beautiful, convenient facility.

I honestly believe it is best to invest in a long-term relationship with your dealer. Once you find a good salesperson and/or sales manager (and I realize it takes patience) stick with them. Be nice. They'll be nice back. Most salespeople like to be liked, it's their nature. It goes a long way. You will find that the negotiations are easier, and you will have an advocate if/when you have problems. This goes double in the service department.

If you get treatment you like, reward it! If it sucks, tell them... and everyone you know.

Well that depends. If you special order a car, then the dealer is guaranteed 100% of the holdback as pure profit since he has to pay $0 in interest to keep the car on the lot. If you know that, you can often negotiate better deals. Depends on the car though, you won't get much discount off a Mercedes, BMW or other luxury car. If you buy an American Big 3 product you can often negotiate much more aggressively.

P.S. This is the car in question, after the inaugural hand wash, wax and detail...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1157070424.jpg