Thanks Rick...good looking car!

v/r
Wayne C.

I sold cars for 4.5 years back in mid 87 to 91. What most of you are describing is called the 4 square. window or better in top left, low ball trade, big down, 3X normal payment. Very easy to manipulate the normal buyer in the 4 squares. I'll bet most dealers still try this too. The best stores don't use that, not worth the time. Dealers I know only use that on less that perfect credit customers. Milk the down...keep interest rate high...then print the deal... milk some more money...can you pay 490 a month????then if I can get your payment @ 450 per month do we have a deal???ok I need just 500 more dollars and your monthly is 456 and thats a deal. sign here.

Hey Art

What can you get a GT40 for?

They are also a BMW dealer.

Another misconception.

Think about it this way. You sell pies. You have four pies in your case. Someone comes and offers you less to make a fresh pie and sell it just out of the oven. But you already have four pies. Which would you rather sell?

Car dealers work this way. They already have inventory on the ground, costing them interest. They'd rather sell those cars. To locate on at another dealer works just as well as they trade inventory - existing unit for existing unit. Factory orders are a last resort, only if your particular color/option configuration isn't available.

It's all leverage to use to get a better deal. Tell the dealer you want to special-order a car, then let him make the deal sweeter to take one out of his inventory.

E

It was the dealer's choice to "bake the pies" (in other words, to flood their lots with vehicles they hope they can push onto people). Why should I feel sorry for them about this?

I think the point is that you don't feel sorry for them, you use it to your advantage when trying to buy a car.

My point is that I would. If they tried to counter with the argument that they already have inventory on-hand and can't offer a lower price on a special order as a result of that, I'd simply tell 'em that their inventory choices are their problem. It's an invalid argument on their part and if they can't meet my requested price on the special order, I'll go someplace else and do it.

It's like going into a bakery and custom-ordering a birthday cake for someone with their name on it. Should I pay more for it (other than labor, which doesn't factor into this discussion) just because it says "Happy Birthday Bob" instead of "Happy Birthday Tim" or "Good Luck on Your Retirement John" simply because the bakery has those ones made already? No. It's an absurd position.

It isn't that it would be more expensive. You're right, it shouldn't cost more.

It's that it probably won't be 'cheaper' to order on than buy one off the lot, as suggested.

In any negotiation, understand the other party's motivation.

Dealers are under contractual obligation to "flood their lots" with the pies the pie maker bakes. They refuse product only with the understanding that they may lose the franchise. And certainly they refuse with the understanding that when the pie maker comes up with a really, really, delicious pie that everyone wants, their franchise will be last in line and end up with the stale pies from the depths of the delivery truck.

It's a very funny, very high stakes, very low margin business.

Most of the stress and irritation is the direct result of the cost of the product. Theoretically, you could get the same irritability results when purchasing pants - but we don't because we don't care so much about the price of pants. However, we do get the same irritating results when dealing on high end stereo, TV, and sports equipment, houses, etc, etc.

Everyone wants the right to negotiate the cheapest price for their pie. No one wants the irritation that results from the work it takes to get at that lowest price. Potential buyers also scream about "straight non-negotiable no hassle" pricing - no matter what the price or margin.

How is a dealer supposed to know the sweetspot price for every customer that walks into the door without discussion? ESP? How is a customer supposed to get their sweetspot price without working and dealing for it? I don't know, but I do know that if there was a better way of doing this the MARKET WOULD HAVE ALREADY MOVED THERE! After all, this is a business relationship system that's been in place since WW1 - so the market has had plenty of time to work its magic.

(The previous paragraphs are not meant to be a defense of any specific jackass(es) or lying hyena individual(s) in the automotive industry - or any other industry using human beings as the prime means of interaction.)

Remember, life is always simpler on the other side of the desk you don't work behind.

Dealers don't have as much control over inventory choice as you think. They sometimes have to buy as much as nine months ahead of delivery times and from packages mandated by manufacturers.

If the baker makes ten cakes at once his costs are less - he may be able to sell cakes from that batch at a cheaper price. If the baker has to make a "special" cake - only once - he may demand a higher price. Especially if the cake costs $40K and has specific design, options, or taste that the general public will not want if the buyer backs out. The baker may want to increase his reward in balance to the risk of the buyer walking away from the cake. ("I changed my mind - I really don't want a red station wagon with the police package suspension and no a/c. Sorry.")

If they don't have the inventory on hand, and can't get it for you, that's a different story. Then you have to order one.

Dealers simply can not inventory every possible combination. In some cases there are over 100,000 possible order combinations on one model. Even if they could, what if they just sold 'your' combo yesterday? Would you'd call 'em stupid for not having two? Think about Porsche for a minute. You can order fifty different leather combinations! Just because it doesn't have the leather-wrapped ignition switch, you would expect them to order another very similar one from Stuttgart?

From what I read, Art had flexibility except for the manual transmission. That helped him get the best deal.

Remember too that manufacturer's incentives are 'known' for relatively short intervals. Ordering a car is sometimes a crap shoot. In Art's case, Ford offered 0% financing for 72 months. That program ends Sept 5th. If he ordered his perfect 'Stang, he would not get the 0%. Listen to the commercials and they always finish with: "must take retail delivery from dealer stock by XXX, Xth." If you order, you don't know for sure what the incentives will be when the car finally comes in.

Also, those short-term incentives may apply for the dealer too. They may have a program where they may get money back based on the number of cars they sold that month or that quarter. They are hungry to sell that 'nth' car that earns them a bonus. Who knows if they'll be in that position two or three months from now when your order comes in.

You may disagree, but that's the way it works.

".....if they can't meet my requested price on the special order, I'll go someplace else and do it."

That's a great attitude.... IF someplace else CAN do it. Better know before you burn that relationship bridge. It might backfire. Maybe you should 'practice' that at a few stores out of your local area so you can get educated. Only then should you try to buy a car that way from the local dealer you'd really rather buy fom anyway.

Good businesses don't want to sell widgets, they want to earn long-term customers. They want your repeat business. They want your referral business. They want your parts and service business.

Sometimes salespeople don't see the big picture, but I'd guess their managers do. Rather than view the manager as the 'hammer', disarm him and be cordial. Give him a compliment. He is the one that holds the purse strings.

If you want to be treated like a valued customer, act like one.

Holdback is never pure profit. Nor is it non-negotiable or guaranteed. (Is anything?). It is a line item ( like an option) on an invoice. This amount (which varies from model to model) is deducted from the dealers payment to the factory for the car. This amount is actually paid by the dealer.

This amount is then sent - on invoiced car by invoiced car basis - to a reserve account held by a manufacturer (who earns interest on it, btw) and then paid periodically to the dealer as a lump sum payment that offsets (never enough, tho!) the interest on a dealer's line of credit. Ironically, dealer's end up paying interest on the very line item used to help pay interest. Funny business.

It may surprise you, but dealer's are usually paying for cars while they are still in the hands of the manufacturer and many days away from the lot and delivery to a customer.

All this rigamarole aside, pre-sold or ordered vehicles do cost dealer less interest than cars that are not pre-sold. But it is not pure profit. Would that it were though - I'd have a lot more interesting Porsche collection !

I don't think thats a current model. The only factory road going GT40, was made years and years ago, 28 total production, doubt you will find a GT40 MKIII at a dealership.

I don't expect a salesperson to have ESP. I expect them to listen and have respect. When I directly tell them what my parameters are, and what I need, they should listen. When they come back with something that I've already indicated was a deal breaker for me, they lose. End of story. When a salesperson listens to what I say and tries to get me what I want, I am more than willing to pay more. When they suggest things that I might not have considered, I respect that too. But far too many just follow the script and see me as a "prospect" and the car as "iron."

Ruf-Porsche probably meant the Ford GT, which is a recreation of the GT40. Production ceased earlier this year and there won't be a 2007 model.

Great car.................................

Call me ignorant on this topic, but if one goes goes toa Saturn dealer, how does that system work as compared to other more "traditional" dealers?

It is my experience that, in order to be a car salesman, one must have a hearing impairment.

I recently leased a car, a Mazda 3 for my wife.

Looking at all the ussual suspects we saw the mazda, toyota, honda and ford focus. In all cases we asked for a similarly equiped car on a 48 month lease with $2500 down. In all cases we were presented with a 48 month lease with $2500 down, Except at Ford. At Ford we were given a 36 month lease and were told to keep our money. Besides the fact that the Focus was the absolute worst car in our comparision the fact that the sales person didnt show us the respect to actually listen to what we had asked for sealed his fate. He was also the only one to ask "what it would take to get us into the car today"

Saturn dealers are typically 'best price' environments where they do not negotiate price. They try to offer their cars at the average real transaction price. It is hard to do on used cars because no two are alike, but it works okay for their customers (who typically hate the negotiating process anyway). New cars sell for sticker, less any incentives. That way everyone is offered the same price.

With Saturn it is what it is, whether you think it's fair or not.

E

We all have horror stories about salesmen and stealerships.
I put a slimeball salesman through a cubical divider once, then asked to borrow the phone to call the police. A cop showed up, heard my story, talked to the slimeball, then gave him a lecture on honesty and morals ;)

in 2002 i walked into a chevy dealership and said "i want to buy that gray silverado right there. Please give me your best price but you only get one shot at it. If the price is good I'll buy the truck, if you play games I walk".
Guess what? he started playing his stupid little liar mindgames. I walked, two hours later I pulled up in my brand new toyota tundra. I honked the horn until he came out, i showed him what happens when he tries to play games with me.
I have never, ever met a car salesman who was not a complete liar and crook.
I'm sure there are honest car salemen out there, I have yet to meet one though.

now when I want to buy a car I decide which one, what color, what options, then I e-mail the details to all the local dealerships. they almost always call be back and say "come on down, we'll give you a great deal" which I never do because I know their game.
Eventually they will tire and offer a firm price. If it's reasonable i will accept it.