My conversation with a car salesman...

[Nathans_Dad]

As you might know, I bought a 2006 Mustang GT 3 days ago up in Austin. We packed up the kids and drove up to look for a car because there were no manual transmission GTs left in San Antonio. So we packed up the kids and drove up, our first stop was at Maxwell Ford. They had one 2006 GT left in a manual transmission, it was black and they had brought it in from another dealership. They said someone asked them to get the car but didn't put a deposit down. I told them that if they made me a good deal I would buy it.

So we go sit down in the salesman's office and the game begins. First he left to get me "a great deal". He comes back with some offer that makes absolutely no sense. It is broken down into payments with $4500 down and 11% interest. 11%!! WTF. Ford is offering 0% for 72 months. I told him that offer was pretty irrelevant to the deal and asked what the price of the car was (the price was conveniently left off their "great deal"). So he leaves again and comes back 5 minutes later with a price of $28250. The sticker is $28750. I told him that I knew what the invoice price was on the car and I wasn't paying him $2000 over invoice for a 2006 Mustang that is on "year end clearance". He asked me what I wanted to pay and I told him $27k (which is $500 over invoice). He said that he didn't think he could do that buy he would check. 5 minutes later he comes back and says that $28250 is their best price. I asked him why and he said that the car was the last manual transmission left on the lot and if I wanted it the price was firm. I told him there were 3 other Ford dealers in Austin and I would go visit them. I then left their dealership. I bought my Mustang an hour later for $26500 (invoice price).

So, I get a followup e-mail from the first Ford dealer on Tuesday. It was their internet sales dept and was an automated e-mail asking me how they could help me in my new car search. I decided to e-mail them back, text of the e-mail train is below:

Dear Richard,

This is an automated response to your purchase request to thank you for your email and to explain why this will be a great car buying experience for you.

First, What ******* Ford?s Internet Department will do for you:

Our Internet Pricing;

Obviously price is an important factor in making a car purchase. We believe in a integrity based selling process that is simple, quick, and anxiety-free. We will work with you to make sure that the price and payments meet your budget needs. With generous rebates and fantastic rates from our lenders, your happiness is assured. All of our used vehicles will also be priced at the lowest possible figure daily.

Your Trade-in;

We like to keep the trade-in's value separate from the purchase price. Our goal is to give you the current market value on your trade-in. We have a Sight-Unseen Trade-In Evaluation you might want to fill out. You see, we believe that the more you know, the more likely you are to do business with us!

Just Click Here: www.*******ford.com

Locating and Ordering;

We keep about 800 new cars in stock at all times, but if the vehicle you want is not on our lot, we will get it for you and keep you informed of the progress during the wait.

Financing;

We will commit to getting you the best finance package available for your individual situation, and to have most of the paperwork done before you arrive so you will not have to spend your entire day waiting on the finance documents.

Second, What you need to do for us:

Talk to us;

Communicate to us what you want, and how and when you want it. We will listen to you and make suggestions only when necessary.

Please Relax;

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the ******* Ford Internet Car-Buying Experience.

If all this sounds good to you, please respond to the e-mail or phone call you will be receiving shortly from one of my Internet Sales Managers. If you are still in the information gathering mode, that's OK; just let us know what your planned timeframe for buying is.

We look forward to earning your business. If we can help you in any way, please don't hesitate to contact us directly. When you come down be sure to ask for the Internet Department to qualify for the special pricing, and thank you for your time!

---------

Thanks for the e-mail followup. I actually am glad you wrote me.

I went to ******* Ford on Monday to look at a 2006 Mustang GT Premium with a manual transmission. You guys had one left on the lot which was black. I test drove it and told the salesman if he made me a good deal I would buy it that day. He came back with an offer sheet that broke the deal down into payments but didn’t mention anything about the price of the car. I explained that I don’t like to deal in payments, I like to negotiate the price of the vehicle, the payments will usually take care of themselves. He then came back with a price that was only $500 under the sticker price. I was surprised by that. I told him that this was a 2006 model and that I was not going to pay nearly sticker price for a one year old car that is supposedly on “Year End Clearance”. He refused to come down any further on the price, his reasoning was that the car was the last manual transmission Mustang he had on the lot. I told him there were other dealers in Austin and I would be happy to go to one of them. I then left your dealership after almost 2 hours of frustration. I drove 20 minutes to Covert Ford and bought one of the three 2006 Mustang GTs they had on the lot with a manual transmission. They offered me $500 over invoice and with my $500 off for being active duty military I basically paid invoice price for the car. The deal ended up being about $1500 less than what you guys offered.

I think that your dealership might want to consider being a bit more flexible in their negotiations. You are selling Fords, not Ferraris.

I know you weren’t involved in this transaction, but my experience in your dealership was the classic car buying headache that makes everyone dislike the process of buying a car. My experience at Covert Ford was 180 degrees different. They were up front with me, didn’t jerk me around and try to play the payment shell game or make countless trips back to the sales manager (for 10 minutes at a time) and made the buying experience actually pleasant. Maybe you guys should take a lesson from them.

Sincerely,

Richard Ward

-----------

Richard,

I apologize for the way you feel about your experience. But if you really think about it, MSRP is what a dealership is supposed to sell there cars at. Ford released the incentives on them due to the fact that they are almost a year old. I don't feel it is wrong to ask for MSRP on a vehicle. In addition, I am sure the payments you where offered where based upon 20% down, at a short term, like 42 months or so. The reason we offer the "Short Term Equity Financing" to our customers, is because the majority of our customers prefer to trade every 2-3 years, and on a 60 or 72 month loan with no money down, they haven't paid enough to properly trade out. The number one reason we can't sell a car to a customer isn't over price, it is about the amount they owe on there vehicle. (too much negative equity) the banks won't finance it. So in order to help our customers we offer the short term program first.&

Its mentality like yours that keeps giving car salesman a bad name, not the way we offer a purchase. We are just trying to help.

In addition, which I am sure you already know, buy your next vehicle through an Internet Salesperson, I am sure a consumer like yourself will have a much better experience.

I wish you would of asked for the Internet Dept. when you came in the other night, I am able to sell Mustang GT's at 250 below invoice, before any factory incentives.

----------

Thanks for your reply. While MSRP is what the manufacturer suggests you sell the car for, I think we both know that the reality is that very few people pay MSRP (at least if they know what they are doing) except for high end luxury cars. I have never paid MSRP for a vehicle and I usually pay thousands less. Now, if I were coming in asking to buy a 2007 Shelby Mustang, I would expect to pay a premium over MSRP. It’s simple supply and demand. The error your salesman made was thinking that a 2006 Mustang GT was a vehicle that had a supply issue, maybe because that particular car was the last manual transmission on your lot. Of course, he seems to have forgotten that there are 3 other Ford dealers in the Austin area who also have Mustangs on their lots, not to mention Dallas or Houston.

I also am curious as to how you would be able to sell me the same car through the internet sales dept for $2000 less than your salesman wanted to sell the car for. Obviously he was pretty firm on the price, he let me walk out of your dealership.

I think the reason I e-mailed you about my experience was because I have purchased 4-5 vehicles so far in my life and I do my homework before I buy. When I come into a dealer I don’t want to play the payment/trade in shell game and I am up front with the salesman that I know what the invoice price is and I know what incentives are available. For the salesman to come back with a payment plan and then offer me $1750 above invoice for a year old Mustang is a little insulting and a waste of my time. Perhaps he sold that Mustang for MSRP that day, I don’t know. What I do know is that Covert Ford earned my business that day and made the sale (with a profit) and your Mustang may still be sitting on your lot.

You guys are obviously free to do business any way you wish, I just wanted to express my opinion about the way I was treated in your sales department.

Richard Ward

[deathpunk dan]

That's just how the volume oriented car dealers, domestic or foreign, make their money. Preying on f00lz who only see the monthly payment end of things, how it affects their immediate cashflow situation.

I tried to buy a Ford SVT Focus a few years back and got so sick of the same run around I said screw it and bought a used BMW 3 series instead.

[IROC]

I like how (in their reply to you) it was all your fault. Typical.

Mike

[Mr_Wizard]

I had a similar experience last month. I was in the market for a used Honda Element (yes let the flames begin woosh!!!!!!). One of the Ford Dealerships here had a 2005 on the lot with 68,XXX miles (lot of miles for a 2005) with the basic package. The guy wanted 18k for it. I told him i was looking more around 14k and showed him a print off from carmax that had a 2004 w/ 35,XXX miles fully loaded for 14.5K. Salesman said give me a min and let me talk to my sales manager, he comes back and says 16.5K. I again say "no I am looking for around 14K" He throws up his arms and says "thats not even a reasonable offer, dont waste my time. You will never find anything for that" and walks away. Ok not a problem I jump in the P-Car and go home. Two days later I find an 03 fully loaded 22,XXX miles, for 14.5K. Go to the dealership talk him down another grand, plus a grand for my trade in (old beater truck), purchase an extended warranty to 88K miles, and basically walk out the door for 12.8K. Drove straight to the other dealership and showed the sales man what I got, for the price I wanted. I love Karma!!!!!

[Z-man]

Rick -
Terrific story! Thanks for sharing the details. I too, shop for cars like you do. I research and don't pay anywhere near MSRP. If I may hijack your thread, I'd like to relate my last new car buying story:

In the spring/summer of 2004, we were looking to sell Kim's (aka Mrs Z-man) daily driver, a Subaru SVX. After months of showing her all my car rags, she finally decided she wanted a New Beetle convertible. So in June, we went to one dealer to check it out, but they were closing, so we could only sit in one. No biggie. But the car fit Kim like a glove. Definately matched her personality.

So a couple of days later, we figured Kim should at least get a test drive of the car to see if she's comfortable with driving it. This was June 30th, 2004. (There is significance to this date - read on) We go to a dealer the next town over and hop into a 'vert and take it for a test drive. Everything was fine - she liked the way the car felt and handled - UNTIL she opened the trunk. Kim's way to practical and the trunk was way too small for her. She told me she'd be more than happy with a regular New Beetle Coupe.

I tell the salesman this. He says, "I can understand that. Oh, by the way, we have a 2003 model New Beetle in the showroom." I said, "Oh, really?" He said, "I can probably get a good deal on that car for you. By the way, it's a turbo." (You now how a dog raises his ears when he hears something appealing? That was me when the guy said, "TURBO." )

Anyway, the car turns out to be a spankin' new 2003 Color concept New Beetle Turbo. (Color concept means they snazz up the car - it has two-tone red/black leather seats, and splashes of red everywhere, auto tranny. Plus all the options - heated seats, traction control/electric limited slip...etc.) The only thing missing was a CD player. The sticker reads something like $24,500.

I tell my sales guy that the car would work, except I'd want a CD player instead of the cassette deck. He said, "Can't do that - we can only add a CD-changer - there is no in-dash CD player for that car." I simply said, "That would work as well." (Such a unit has something close to $700 or $1000 invoice price).

So I tell the salesguy, "You said you can get me a good price on this car." He says, "Yes. Would you like to offer something for it?" I say, "I'll buy it now if you sell it to me for $19,500.00." After picking him up off the floor, I tell him, "You asked - that's how much I'm willing to pay for it. Now I know you need to go talk to your manager, so walk on up to his office and do your little game thing."

He comes back 5 minutes later with a bewildered look on his face. He says, "I got some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that we don't want your trade in (Kim's SVX.) The good news is that the car is yours. But you have to take it off the lot tonight." I ask, "How much?" He says, "$19,500.00. They accepted your offer. It is our last day before year end close, and the salesmanager wants this car on the books as sold."

I made a quick call to a friend of mine who is a Porsche salesmanager. I told him the specs on the car, as well as the asking price. He asked for mileage, I said, "13 miles." He said, "13,000 miles -- $19500 for a used New Beetle Turbo with low mileage is a decent price." I said, "No, it's got 13 miles on the odo and it's brand new." He said, "I can't beat that price - nobody can. Get the car."

I had to rush home and bring back my check book - we didn't expect to
buy a car that day. The finance guy was eating dinner and had to come back to the store to close the deal. As we were filling out the paper work, he simply stated, "You do know you stole that car. That's a great deal."

And I do think we did get a great deal on the car. Running strong - has 20,000 on the clock and no problems. Plus the turbo is fun!

For us, it was the right place at the right time, and being willing to be flexible. In our case, the flexibiilty of getting a coupe instead of a 'vert gave us the added benefit of having a turbo under the hood!

Again, my apologies for the hijack. And sorry for the long post.
-Z-man.

PS: The dealer? Cresmount VW in Pompton Plains, NJ. Gotta give them a plug for their no-hassle sales team, and their decent service shop.

[azasadny]

Richard,
Contact me if you're still interested. As a Ford employee, I can probably get you a vehcle on a "Z Plan" or "Friends and Family" deal. These are pretty good deals as there is no haggling and the dealer can't rip you off. Let me know if I can help!

[azasadny]

Richard,

Oops! I just reread and saw that you got your vehicle. Good luck with it, I hope it's a good experience for you!

[GDSOB]

This kills me:

Its mentality like yours that keeps giving car salesman a bad name, not the way we offer a purchase. We are just trying to help

apparently it's your fault that car salesmen have a bad rep...

[Nathans_Dad]

Yeah, that particular line struck me as funny too.

I like how it is MY fault that their salesmen play the stupid games that made me walk out of their dealership. God forbid they should be up front and honest and just make the deal.

I mean, I fully expect the dealer to make a profit. The dealer deserves to make a profit, he is providing a service. I usually pay somewhere $300-500 over invoice before factory incentives. If I can't get a deal near that I walk and find another dealer. Usually they will call that night and take the deal. This guy wanted $1750 over invoice for a year old car? Must be outta yo mind...

And that isn't even mentioning the 2-3% holdback the dealer gets from the factory when they sell the car...

[Mr_Wizard]

Rick,

Your probably the reason lawyers, doctors, and mechanics have a bad rep too Shame on you. No cookie for you!!!!!!

[Z-man]

Rick doesn't need a cookie - he got a smokin' deal on a Mustang GT!

-Z

[Christien]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad

Its mentality like yours that keeps giving car salesman a bad name, not the way we offer a purchase. We are just trying to help.
[/I]

It's statements like that that prove people's fears about car salesmen. Way to stick it to them - great story!

Did anyone else notice all the mistakes in the dealership's emails? "there" instead of "their" and "where" instead of "were"? I know it's petty, but these kinds of grammatical errors looks extremely unprofessional to me and really make someone look unintelligent, especially in a formal business meail. Couple that with the guy's obvious attitude, and that's one place I'd never do business.

[id10t]

I just figure out what I want, what I'm willing to pay, and go find it. Make the sales guy an offer, hedge about financing, let them think they can get me at 11%+, and then pay cash

[widebody911]

I've never bought a new car, but I've had some fun 'tag-along' experiences.

A g/f wanted to buy a new truck (she was into horses and needed something to pull a trailer). We were doing the sales office sketch at one dealer, and during the idle chitchat while he's pulling numbers out of his ass, he asks her "So, what do you do for a living?" She replies "I'm a lawyer" The look on his face, and change in demeanor, was priceless! I don't think you could have got the same effect if you had dumped a pail of ice water on his head and kicked him in the nuts at the same time.

[Tobra]

Most stealerships are like that. I remember when I bought my first car after completing my residency. Went in, they made me some stupid offer, just as you describe. We haggled, they gave me a reasonable verbal offer, come back Monday to sign papers and pick it up.

I return on Monday, car is right up front. Go talk to the sales guy, who acts like he does not know where the contract is because he is such a busy guy selling cars, shuffles the papers on the desk, looks harried. Opens the only drawer his desk has, and there it is, right on top.

I look it over, and it is not the deal we agreed on, he hems and haws, well we can't sell it for that. I tell him he must have misunderstood me when I told him I intended to buy a car. Went down the street, looked at a second hand Nissan 240 SX at the chevy dealer, who gave me the same BS about payments and stuff. I got them to quote me a reasonable price for the car at a stupid high interest rate, 15.9% as I recall. I went ahead and signed the papers, and paid the note off 3 weeks later, before the interest started to accrue. The finance guy called and said, is there some sort of problem with your financing, Me-no, well we could do better, how about 4.9%, Me-WHy would I do that, I paid it off already, he did not have anything to say after that.

Funny how both they and the Ford dealer stepped on their dicks trying to screw someone over and ended up screwing themselves. The Ford sales manager called a few days after I bought the Nissan, asking about what we can do to get me in my car. I already bought a car, I told your guy I was buying a car that day and he thought I was kidding, you might want to talk to him about that nonsense.

[rouxroux]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
The number one reason we can't sell a car to a customer isn't over price, it is about the amount they owe on there vehicle. (too much negative equity) the banks won't finance it. So in order to help our customers we offer the short term program first.&

Its mentality like yours that keeps giving car salesman a bad name, not the way we offer a purchase. We are just trying to help.


Richard Ward[/I]

Richard, if "communication" is that important to them, maybe a crash course in English would help "Binkie Boy" in the internet dept.

1. "salesman"....sorry, should be salesmen
2. "there car"....sorry again Binkie...their car.
You did the right thing. I hope you also sent a copy of all that crap to the GM...Maybe he'll "get it"...I got a call from a dealership OWNER after a bad experience that I finally reported to Nissan America (Infiniti division) when I walked in with cash in hand to order a G35 for the wife and could not even get a salesman to say hi to us...We called Nissan, then drove 4 hours to Baton Rouge THAT DAY to test drive a 6MT G35...I got the call from the other dealership's OWNER the following Monday...

"where wolf"? ....there! there wolf!

[notfarnow]

So funny to see other people picked up on the poor grammar. It drove me NUTS when I read it, and almost posted about it.

I'd be tempted to edit the email for typos and poor grammar, then send it back to him.

Its (It's) mentality like yours that keeps giving car salesman a bad name, not the way we offer a purchase. We are just trying to help.

I wish you would of (have)asked for the Internet Dept. when you came in the other night, I am able to sell Mustang GT's at 250 below invoice, before any factory incentives.

LOL, I am a grammar weenie

I love the fact that he begins by apologizing for the way you feel, instead of for the way they treated you.

[Nathans_Dad]

I'm usually a spelling and grammar freak too, but I thought I would try to be mature and not nit pick about his spelling. I have plenty of time to be immature on PPOT....

My mom wanted me to drive the new Mustang into their dealership on the way home and rub it in their face, but I told her that it really wasn't worth my time and wouldn't make any difference anyway.

I think that there are some dealerships who are starting to "get it" and not play so many games. Unfortunately there are still dealerships out there who obviously DON'T "get it".

[Christien]

But if you write him back again, you might point it out as indicative of the overall level of professionalism around their office. It's really a poor image to be putting out.

"would of" - grrrr... that just looks dumb.

[john70t]

Friend who is a wholesaler told me the best time to shop is before mid-Feb(I think) when the dealerships have to pay lot taxes on the vehicles in the lot-new or old.
I wouldn't buy from a dealer though, unless it was first class service and as stated/fair price. Why pay thousands extra in markup/delivery/etc to be insulted/ignored by mr. slick? That'll buy a whole lot of lobster dinners.