cluster bombs are ok by US

[Seahawk]

Like many issues discussed here, the term, "Custer Bomb" is not a simple term.

The link below details the various and varied submunitions carried in cluster bombs.

The submunition that seems to be at issue in this thread is the area denial weapon...I can with absolute certainty tell you that any weapon that had a 40% false submunition rating that was not an area denial weapon would not be dropped.

Weapons testing in this country is so exhaustive and monitored that some of the assertions in this thread are, well, exhausting.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/cluster.htm

[stevepaa]

"The ball-type submunitions are APERS. They are very small and are delivered on known concentrations of enemy personnel, scattered across an area. Like a land mine, it will not blow up until pressure is put on it. "

So these are perfectly acceptable to use near civilians?

[techweenie]

Originally posted by stevepaa
"The ball-type submunitions are APERS. They are very small and are delivered on known concentrations of enemy personnel, scattered across an area. Like a land mine, it will not blow up until pressure is put on it. "

So these are perfectly acceptable to use near civilians?

The standard appears to be very finely applied. I've seen news reporters go to great lengths to condemn suicide bombers for packing their bomb jackets with ball bearings or other shrapnel. But if we or our allies drop area antipersonnel munitions ('area denial' is such an innocuous-sounding phrase, why don't the Palestinians pick it up for their press releases?) then we are only inflicting unintended collateral damage.

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by techweenie
The standard appears to be very finely applied. I've seen news reporters go to great lengths to condemn suicide bombers for packing their bomb jackets with ball bearings or other shrapnel. But if we or our allies drop area antipersonnel munitions ('area denial' is such an innocuous-sounding phrase, why don't the Palestinians pick it up for their press releases?) then we are only inflicting unintended collateral damage.

I think the suicide bomber has intent, you know, with other shrapnel.

[Seahawk]

I am not going to argue the rational behind employment of weapons, or the reasons why they exist.

Try and get the mechanics right, however, when discussing the weapon in question.

Edit: Innocuous-sounding phrases...this from Tech.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
They dress as civilians and hide among civilians, and the civilians hide them too. Yes, use them. You are judged by the company you keep, and if you let terrorist him among you, well, if you die, you made the choice

Bingo!

Wonder how many in this thread have been to Beirut? Well I have and you could see the Hezbollah offices right next to hospitals, schools and such but nooooooo they were not doing this to get shelter from the attacks that they knew were coming.

Believe that DHoward was correct that we should just drop marshmellows on them, so that no one is hurt.

Personally I feel that the Israeli Air force should bomb a large ditch between Syria and Lebanon to stop any and all re-supply of weapons.

Then send in the troops and start waging full blown war with Hezbollah. After all, Hezbollah has been doing this with Israel for years and they just turned the other cheek. Now its time for payback and if the civilians are stupid enough to know that the guy in the flat nextdoor has a few AK's and RPG's and has not moved out, then they deserve to meet Allah a bit sooner than they expected.

[john70t]

"Believe that DHoward was correct that we should just drop marshmellows on them, so that no one is hurt. "
-bombs are sooo funny. Little children just go right on up to happy heaven......like those good little Christian children up there in Lebanon.

Why are we even talking about, or supporting, this?

War is brutal, but infinitely more "humane" today than throughout history. Several hundred thousand Iraqis starved to death from the US/UN sanctions. Several tens of millions from Stalin and Mao.

Isreal's situation is not the problem of the US, any more than Uganda's.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
...and if the civilians are stupid enough to know that the guy in the flat nextdoor has a few AK's and RPG's and has not moved out, then they deserve to meet Allah a bit sooner than they expected.

Christ! What is it you expect them to do? Tell the apartment manager? C'mon. If you've been to Beirut, you must know it goes much deeper than "the guy next door."

[kach22i]

It's claimed that they are painted bright colors to aid in discovery and clean up/disposal. However the fact is playing children are attracted to the colorful new toys they find laying around and often die or lose a limb picking them up.



What is terrorism?

[fintstone]

Originally posted by livi
Who invented the term 'collateral damage' ? Arnold ? Apparently its a fact of war that has to be taken into account.

However, if a bunch of those cluster fuchs were dropped in my back yard where my kids are playing, I would be rather upset.

If you and a bunch of terrorists were firing missiles from your back yard....you would only be getting what you asked for.

[fintstone]

Apparently we are supposed to treat terrorists in civilian clothes that we capture as "soldiers" (geneva convention), but when we fight with them or kill them they are "civilians." Some folks sure make some strange, illogical arguments supporting their "modern minutemen" in Iraq.

[stevepaa]

Yeah, we know fint. Nuke them all is your answer.

Keep on twisting the discussion to fit your conscience.

[Usmellgass2?]

I am sick of this mind set that we are abusing these people. These people are not cutie little harmless bunnies frolicking in the meadow. They are a sick society of maniacs, literally dieing for the chance to kill you, your family, your countryman in cold blood. They launch missiles from schools and hospitals ect intending to cause collateral damage at the counter strike. They know this will feed the hoards of Jane Fonda's punks in this country who think they will feel all warm and fuzzy when the US can no longer protect its self. We were not at war with anybody on 911. We are now at war with a radical fundamental faction that wants to impose a twisted fascist interpretation of Islam on the entire world. Much as the Taliban did in Afghanistan.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by stevepaa
Yeah, we know fint. Nuke them all is your answer.

Keep on twisting the discussion to fit your conscience.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle....Did I advocate nukes? Does it make it easier to argue against my position if you fabricate it to suit your's? We can do anything we need to do with existing conventional weapons...if allowed to do so....but whiny liberals do everything they can to handcuff us while excusing the most despicable actions imaginable by the enemy. Obviously they want more of a "fair fight" where our troops are more likely to be killed and the enemy is less likely.

[stevepaa]

Originally posted by fintstone
Talk about the pot calling the kettle....Did I advocate nukes? Does it make it easier to argue against my position if you fabricate it to suit your's? We can do anything we need to do with existing conventional weapons...if allowed to do so....but whiny liberals do everything they can to handcuff us while excusing the most despicable actions imaginable by the enemy. Obviously they want more of a "fair fight" where our troops are more likely to be killed and the enemy is less likely.

You did it again.

Just say you support the use of these type of munitions in all circumstances, even when innocents may later be killed and be done with it.

I don't.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by stevepaa
You did it again.

Just say you support the use of these type of munitions in all circumstances, even when innocents may later be killed and be done with it.

I don't.

Where the hell do you see that?
Jeeze. You argue like my wife...

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Usmellgass2?
They are a sick society of maniacs, literally dieing for the chance to kill you, your family, your countryman in cold blood.

All of them?

You should take a look at the dead sometime, the ones which will never be published by the US press.

That means you will have to seek those alternative sources that you so distrust.

[Usmellgass2?]

Originally posted by stevepaa
You did it again.

innocents may later be killed

I don't.

That is an unfortunate element of armed conflict. Not a cause for pacifism. With out armed conflict these people will be in our streets unopposed. That is their goal, no reasonable man can argue with that.

[dhoward]

Originally posted by Usmellgass2?
That is an unfortunate element of armed conflict. Not a cause for pacifism. With out armed conflict these people will be in our streets unopposed. That is their goal, no reasonable man can argue with that.

You haven't been paying attention. They just want to be left alone.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by Usmellgass2?
With out armed conflict these people will be in our streets unopposed. That is their goal, no reasonable man can argue with that.

Again, all of them?

Even the ones we "liberated "?