Cutlery (with pic goodness)

[Mule]

JP, what's your opinion of Cutco? I had a set (prior to a divorce) & thought the edge was excellent and durable.

[vash]

speechless.

i have 3 knives. in the kitchen at least. i just handled that shun sushi blade a few weeks ago. if my wife wasnt standing with me, i would be $150 poorer. it was very nice.

i want that exact butcher knife you have. something to leave in the camo backpack for serious backwood wetwork.

you have a great collection. i like my kitchen more simply stocked. i would freak out with knife management.

how are you storing them? magnet holder?

[Overpaid Slacker]

I think Cutco are fine knives; but they had a penchant for serrations, which I'm not a fan of (other than on disposable bread knives) and I don't like the handle ergonomics. It's axiomatic when the gurus are asked what knife is the 'best' -- it's the one that feels comfortable in your hand. Even, arguably, if the "comfortable" one doesn't have the full tang, and the "best" steel... and Cutco don't feel as comfortable to me as others; but they have a deserved, dedicated following for steel/edge quality. At least the older stuff; I don't know about stuff within the last 20 years or so.

The monster is a 300mm Kikuichi Gyuto. You need one. For backwoods/outdoors, get you an Ontario SP8 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ONTARIO-SP8-MACHETE-SURVIVAL-SPEC-PLUS-KNIFE-CAMPING_W0QQitemZ380062026324QQihZ025QQcategoryZ43 326QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

For those most often used, magnet bar. For others, a drawer storage divider that keeps them separate, and the edges protected.

I'll take a picture of the full complement soon.

JP

[gtc]

Nice collection JP.
I saw some Kikuichis for the first time in a store a while back, and they looked nice. How do they hold an edge?
I have a few older Henckels and Globals, all good knives, but they don't really feel 'right' a lot of times. The Henckels feel good, but are kind of soft. The globals still feel weird in my hand, and they're a pain to hone (the metal is so hard).
I'm thinking about switching to Shun, as they seem to be a good compromise, and they have plenty of different sizes to choose from.

[Overpaid Slacker]

Shun are really nice knives; I like Ken Onion's designs. The are a particularly hard stainless steel, so once they get an edge, they'll hold it.

I think globals are sexy, but they don't fit my hand as well as other knives. There are so many different "levels" of Henckel, that it's tough to generalize... other than to say that, if you have a particular knife in mind, you can probably get at least an equivalent knife for less; and some times you can get an older (even unused) carbon steel knife that will out-perform the Henckel for less money.

Kikuichi hold their edges very well, IMHO, but that's a factor of a few things -- first, they use virgin carbon steel that they make in micro-batches, second, if you put the appropriate edge on a knife, it will hold it longer, and third, I "hone" my knives frequently, as in use the waterstone to straighten (not sharpen) the edge.

If you're going to buy a knife from a retailer, go to one that will let you try it out first. Handle whatever you're going to buy beforehand. The ebay seller Ralph that I use frequently will allow you to return a knife you don't like. I've swapped a couple with him that I wasn't wild about... granted, I had a history with him, but he's a good guy and will answer any questions. Ralph1396 is his ebay name.

An interesting experiment -- get a new knife (even a Shun, which come pretty dayum sharp for a factory edge) bring it home and cut up a couple of onions. Then, sharpen the knife -- I prefer a waterstone, but you can use the Pro Edge or Lansky -- and cut up a few more onions. Just a few minutes' time can dramatically improve even a factory edge. Most people think the sharpest their knives will ever be are when they're right from the factory. Nope.

Good luck, and enjoy.

JP

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Overpaid Slacker

An interesting experiment -- get a new knife (even a Shun, which come pretty dayum sharp for a factory edge) bring it home and cut up a couple of onions. Then, sharpen the knife -- I prefer a waterstone, but you can use the Pro Edge or Lansky -- and cut up a few more onions. Just a few minutes' time can dramatically improve even a factory edge. Most people think the sharpest their knives will ever be are when they're right from the factory. Nope.

I might disagree when it comes to Globals. The two I've handled were absolutely scary sharp out of the box.

That's the other nice thing about buying a knife in person. If they have enough stock, you can pick and choose from what's there and find the one piece of a given model that has a perfect handle, no staining, good factory edge, etc. Buying online is often a crapshoot with what quality you get.

[Overpaid Slacker]

I can't opine about factory Global sharpness... I don't like how they feel. However, if you're going down the Global path and don't need the sexy overdesign, I strongly recommend MAC --
Global, MAC and Shun are sharpened to about 16 degrees per side factory (or supposed to be) and I don't doubt Globals are THAT sharp "out of the box". And that's freaking sharp. I only sharpen a couple of my knives to less than 30 degrees of included angle.

Most "merely" very good knives come around 25 degrees a side from the factory. As for the other, lesser, knives... who knows.

I'll again suggest MAC, b/c they'll at least keep up with Globals and Shuns (the 3 names are frequently used together) and they cost much less. Many of the working chefs I know use MACs as their primary knives. They're stainless and I still have a lot of love for them.

"The MAC will outcut just about any knife out there" -- Chad Ward, in the context of the 8" MAC, Shun, Global and Messermeister Elite chef knives.
Chad spent several days looking through electron microscopes at factory edges... evidently messermeister elite comes with the best factory edge. But you can still improve on what you get from the factory.

JP

[Overpaid Slacker]

While I'm running off at the mouth (keyboard), a couple of other things to keep in mind:

Most mass-market knife manufacturers (including the upper-end mass market) do not design their knives to have (much less to maintain) a screaming sharp edge. By and large, the big-box upper-end brands (including Henckel's sub-elite stuff) is designed first and foremost to be very stain resistant and reasonably soft (52-56 on Rockwell C scale).

The edges are usually 50 deg plus (included angle) -- the thinking being that, though the edge is relatively blunt, it's sturdier and will therefore hold up to the abuse of the average mouthbreathing pinhead.

In short, the manufacturers do not want to deal with returns, so they're more concerned in keeping the knife (i) soft enough to endure mistreatment without shattering and (ii) shiny (despite being left in hellish, acidic, and/or dishwasher conditions). "Sharp", in the context that any knife fanatic would consider it, is, at best, a tertiary consideration.

Most Japanese carbon knives are in the 61-64 hardness, and 60-62 is a good overall compromise for edge strength vs. brittleness. But, if you do not take care of carbon steel knives, they'll discolor (BFD, IMHO) or, more importantly, micro-rust along the blade, undoing the keenness of the edge, requiring more frequent re-sharpening.

Generally, the harder the steel, the keener the edge it will take. Leaving the stainless soft, it's easier for knife manufacturers to put on an edge, but it probably won't get as sharp, and definitely won't stay as sharp nearly as long. You can make stainless in the 58-60 hardness range, but it's not cheap, it's slightly more brittle than "normal" stainless, and it might not be as "stainless" (read: pretty) as the more glistening (though softer) stainless steel.

By and large, to increase hardness, you increase the carbon (which will decrease the "stainlessness") and, if it's stainless steel, decrease the chromium content (which is what makes stainless "stainless"). So, for hardness, you're adding more of what will make the knife corrosion prone (carbon) and taking away the stuff that will make the knife corrosion resistant and shiny (chromium).

Throw in some vanadium and cobalt, and you've got yourself a steel that will take the keenest edge you can imagine!

For a metallurgical reason I haven't figured out, "hard" stainless knives, though still softer than my japanese carbon steel knives, take a lot more physical work to take an edge -- as though they're harder steel, when they're not! It may be that it's that much more work to work off the sturdy, broad-shouldered factory edge to put a real edge on it....?

JP

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Overpaid Slacker

For a metallurgical reason I haven't figured out, "hard" stainless knives, though still softer than my japanese carbon steel knives, take a lot more physical work to take an edge -- as though they're harder steel, when they're not! It may be that it's that much more work to work off the sturdy, broad-shouldered factory edge to put a real edge on it....?

JP

Ah, it's more than just hardness, it's crystalline structure and what you're actually doing when you sharpen a blade.

Stainless isn't absolutely harder, as in a measure of distortion from pressure, but it has a more cagelike matrix. It's hard to get that matrix to move around, which is what you need when you sharpen a knife. Carbon steel is more like a cage with playdoh all around it...you can change the overall shape much easier, but it's jsut as hard to make gross changes to the cage.

Try taking a factory high carbon steel blade from an included angle of 50 to an included angle of 35, and it's probably just as hard as a stainless one...those are gross changes. Putting a shaving edge on each, the stainless is harder to do.

My daily carry Benchmade has a two-angle cut...i worked the entire edge to a 35 degree included angle, then I put a 40-45 degree bevel right on the edge. This gives me a relatively strong cutting edge (but giving up some absolute sharpness), but bringing that edge back is easy, because the metal supporting it is at 35 degrees. If you put a flat grind all of the way down, then restoring your edge requires working against whatever your total angle is, which is probably quite high.

[RWebb]

OK, I'm interested in forks

where can I get some good ones?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Ah, it's more than just hardness, it's crystalline structure and what you're actually doing when you sharpen a blade.

Stainless isn't absolutely harder, as in a measure of distortion from pressure, but it has a more cagelike matrix. It's hard to get that matrix to move around, which is what you need when you sharpen a knife. Carbon steel is more like a cage with playdoh all around it...you can change the overall shape much easier, but it's jsut as hard to make gross changes to the cage.

Try taking a factory high carbon steel blade from an included angle of 50 to an included angle of 35, and it's probably just as hard as a stainless one...those are gross changes. Putting a shaving edge on each, the stainless is harder to do.

My daily carry Benchmade has a two-angle cut...i worked the entire edge to a 35 degree included angle, then I put a 40-45 degree bevel right on the edge. This gives me a relatively strong cutting edge (but giving up some absolute sharpness), but bringing that edge back is easy, because the metal supporting it is at 35 degrees. If you put a flat grind all of the way down, then restoring your edge requires working against whatever your total angle is, which is probably quite high.

So do you bring your electron microscope with you when knife shopping?

[Mule]

Originally Posted by RWebb

OK, I'm interested in forks

where can I get some good ones?

Try divorce court!

[TWork]

I'm into cooking and appreciate the whole collection you have there. And, I understand the analogy to a single wrench v. a colleciton of wrenches. But, where do you keep them all? Do you just have a few you use regularly and the rest stored as a collection? I'd imagine if you used the right knife for the job, prep/clean up time could substantially increase.

[Overpaid Slacker]

Mike - that makes sense, and it's kind of what I had in mind. It's easier to sharpen harder steel in the sense that it's easier to grate parmesan than brie, and I'm taking much more off to get the edge I want on a stainless blade.

If you want forks (as in cooking forks), try ralph on ebay... he's always got some great ones, including hard-to-find pot forks and some really cool older carving forks. If it's dining/dinner forks you're after, I'm going to be no help.

TWork -
I've found the easiest thing is to have a magnetic bar, on which you can store the half dozen knives you use all the time. I'd like a large cutting surface into which I could store a few of them vertically (as long as the blades aren't exposed). The rest of them are in a cutlery drawer, with a knife holder/separator. If I think of the name (it may be "wave") I'll post it.

As previously confessed, I could get along with a half dozen knives... but it tends to be the knives I bought "later" that I find more useful to me, b/c I've learned what I want/need. So I'm keeping the older ones, kinda just to have.

Seriously, that picture was taken (and this thread started) almost exactly 2 years ago, and my collection has probably doubled.

If I were to start now, I'd get a really nice chinese cleaver (thin to medium), a gyuto, a deba, a paring knife, a bread knife (cheap) and a smaller chef's knife. And maybe a good yanagiba/takohiki slicer.

JP

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by Mule

So do you bring your electron microscope with you when knife shopping?

Only so I can keep track of your microscopic brain.

[cab83_750]

JP,

How are the Kyocera ceramic knives? I have 2 sets of Henckel's and would like to try out the Kyocera?

[Overpaid Slacker]

cab --
In short, they're sharp (though not fearsomely sharp)... for a long time. but they're only sharp once, and brittle.

hardess = ability to take and hold an edge.
ceramics = ridiculously hard, and will micro-fracture, so they'll take a good edge, but not a screaming edge.
however, harness also = brittle.

I've broken 2 ceramic knives (one dropped, one, just trying to "turn" the blade too much in a cut). I haven't broken a Kyocera, in large part, I think, because I know enough to use them for specific things that don't involve torquing the blade.

While you would never use any knife on glass or marble or, frankly, anything harder than they are, you should never ever use a ceramic on anything other than a dedicated cutting surface.

The knife comes "sharp" compared to your run-of-the-mill cutlery, so to many folks who've never wielded a "real" edge, they seem like a freaking scalpel. AND, their true advantage is that, with proper care/use it will retain the above-average edge for a long time. The edge won't roll, so it will never need honing.

In my experience, it's impossible to re-sharpen a ceramic knife, so once the edge is gone, it's either (i) throw out the knife or (ii) send it back to Kyocera for re-sharpening (back to it's above-average, but not great edge). Yes, there are stones that claim to be 'ceramic knife sharpeners' -- not in my experience.

MHO -- ceramics are worth trying, once. If it's your thing, great, but understand the care with which you need to treat them. Although they won't stain, and have a very good factory edge, they require what seems to me, an even higher degree of care -- never, ever, make a mistake. OK, if you drop a carbon steel knife, you may mar the edge -- BUT, it won't shatter, you'll still have a knife, and you can re-sharpen the edge... to an edge sharper than you can get with the ceramic. If you fail to promptly wipe down a carbon steel knife, you'll discolor the steel and it won't look as pretty, but you'll still have a knife.

ATEOTD, they've got a place, if the user is prepared to accommodate the knife (usually, I like it the other way 'round). I think ceramics got a reputation as being the "answer" b/c most people are used to lousy edges on their steel knives, so the ceramic's very good edge, that it retains (right up until the knife breaks) seems like a revelation. But a truly sharp carbon steel blade will be a better knife on many fronts. If you want to try a ceramic, go ahead, but understand its limitations, and get one with some heft to it (though not too long....)

I think that peelers or mandolines are great applications for ceramic edges -- they don't suffer torsional strain that knives would, and will never need sharpening.

JP

[Overpaid Slacker]

Mike --
I did a little more reading on my issue --
"... a knife's sharpenability ... depends more on the type of steel and the type of carbides it contains than on the hardness of the steel. Chromium, vanadium and tungsten, for example, form very tough, abrasion-resistant carbides. Sharpening, by its very nature, relies on abrasion. You rub knife A on rock B. Steel with a lot of tough carbides is going to be more difficult to abrade. That's why a low-Rockwell, low-carbon stainless steel knife from the grocery store can be such a pain in the butt to sharpen, while a super hard plain carbon sashimi knife can take a screaming edge in minutes."

mystery solved. You put Chromium together with vanadium and tungsten and you've got a synergy of tough carbides -- a very very wear-resistant steel that results in a very very difficult steel to sharpen.