Not trying to knock NASCAR drivers or skill with my earlier post. I just think it's easier to shine in Nextel Cup than in F1. No disrespect intended and please accept my apology for the implication.

You guys that try to diminish his ability and accomplishments by demeaning his personality or "sportsmanship" are sort of ridiculous.

Ponder for a moment the exceptional people you have been exposed to in your lives. Whether you are talking about a talented football player, a great surgeon, grand champion chess player, master debater, whatever, if they are good, it is not by mistake. People that excel have a drive to be the best. They come across as arrogant, expect others to give way, defer to their superiority if you will. A champion is there to win, expects to win and often will do whatever it takes to do so.

Very rare to see anyone who is truly great at anything to be well rounded. If your life is truly consumed by something, you don't have room for much else until you move on to the next part of your life.

That said, a great driver is a a great driver, whether he is pedaling a 600 cc Fiat around a track, or running an F1 car that costs more than most make in a lifetime. I think if you took any of the great drivers of yore, stuck them in a modern F1 car and give them time to train, they are competitive. Greatest ever? Good luck on your debate, you will get no resolution

:rolleyes:

I just love the Schumi haters who claim that he's ethically inferior. Have you guys not forgotten that the hallowed Senna and Prost were both very well known for their ruthlessness, especially Senna? Those two guys were team-mates at McLaren and each took the other out in order to clinch the championship. I believe this happened in succeeding years but I may be wrong about that. I know Schumacher has tried that on a couple of occasions too, which shows that he can also be ruthless.

All three of them have shown a lack of respect for their fellow competitors and believed that others should simply get out of their way when approached from behind.

I believe that had Senna lived he would have been as vilified as Schumacher is now. However, he died while racing and that seems to have elevated him to can-do-no wrong God status. Senna was widely disliked by the other drivers around him while he was alive, however, that does not take away the fact that he was one of the best, if not the best, drivers of all time. Period.

I think a certain ruthlessness will be found in the best competitors in any sport.

By the way, I consider Alonso to be the quickest driver in F1 today and it seems he's going down the same path as Senna, Prost and Schumacher. He's already demonstrated a certain sense of superiority out there to his fellow racers. He get's very impatient when others do not step aside right away.

I still don't know why the hell Sebastian Bourdaix hasn't been called by ANYONE in F1. . .

Such ridiculous cliquiness. . .

Two words: Cristiano da Matta (or is that three words?) :)

btw, I just checked and he is making good progress, expected to leave the hospital for a rehab facility very soon.

Good news about Shorty. I hope he recovers well.

Good to see the Pineapple at the races, also. Looking great as usual!

When an athlete operates his craft at the extreme edge, with so much at stake and so many variables in play - I can't think of anything more complex than a modern Formula 1 car - he is bound to make a mistake now and then. He may be a cold, calculating German, but he's also human. Look at the sheer number of laps involved with practice, qualifying and the race. Compare it against the drivers of 40 years ago. No comparison. A modern driver is under such incredible scrutiny compared to Gurney, Fangio... even Senna and Prost. This intense scrutiny will uncover more blemishes. Its a product of the modern era and it will only get worse. As far as the greatest ever, I think it has to be Schumacher. As an athlete and master of a machine and the 500 people backing him, he has no equal. The drivers of old were casual, old, gentlemanly and not at the same level of tune. MS is the class of the field. He took a hobbled, broken team basically winless for many, many years and built them into a dominating force that we haven't seen in a long, long time. Simply put, Michael became bigger than Ferrari or F1. While I'm sad to see him go - I think he has lots of life in him still - he has done it the right way.

Was thinking the same thing but who knows about the team. Jean Todt is not happy about this nor are a lot of other team members. He might just pull a whole group out and transfer to another team and start racing. Thats if Ferarri have not paid him a massive bonus to not compete for 3-5 years.

What do you think the chances are that Schumacher could become involved with another team in a front office capacity? It would be nice to see someone buy one of the sluggo teams, either old or new and get some kind of engine in it other than lasts years this or a second tier that. Wonder what it is going to take to get VAG, Peugot or heaven forbid, Porsche into the F1 game? Porsche is arguably the closest to being ready in the basic R & D area as both VAG and Peugot have put their eggs in the diesel basket. I read that the CGT motor was a detuned, enlargened version of an F1 engine they were developing for someone. The work they did on the Spyder engine can't hurt either, what with the new V8 formula. It would be interesting to say the least, but they would need someone to foot the bill like Tag did back in the day.

He is the best driver in F1 history. Leave it at that.

Anyways, my dream came true at the Italian gp - Schumacher 1st and Alonso out of points.

He's going to retire in great style - formula 1 world champ and ferrari as constructor champions.

I think Kimi is the fastest driver out there. Mclaren, however, doesn't have a very fast car this year. Last year, he was absolutely unmatched. I have a firm belief that Kimi will take the championship with Ferrari next year.

Dottore,

Your comments belie an either a wilful ignorance of both Benetton's and early Ferrari shenanigans or genuine lack of knowledge.

Bentton was instrumental in the use of hidden traction control when it was banned... but that should not play a part in MS's success should it.. nor should one incident, in Australia which happened to mean MS won the championship rather than Damien Hill...now why should somebody whose superiority is such that such tactics are needed?

Lets face it that had MS not finished that race then he would not have been WC, all Hill had to do was finish...so much for superiority. (PS Hill was a by no means an exceptional racing driver...but he was very very good at getting the car right so that he didn't have to race so much with the others... and to be honest is easy to see why. Hill does not figure on my list of great racing drivers).

Needless to say MS's tactics against Villeneuve which got him disqualified from second were again great sportsmanship events for a person whose talent was so superior as to not need it.

Cs119, that's why there is more than a whiff of 'not sportsmanship about his victories.. to say nothing of his wins when Eddie was his team mate....

To say nothing of Ferrari's reluctance to reveal their codes to the FIA governing their own traction control....until they knew full well McLaren were going to beat them regardless and they became more open...

Granted since Mika has gone Ferrari have been far less secretive about their car, prefering to use the power of the stewards to do the work.. and all power to them. It is a sport to be played out on the track, in the pits and in the circus of the technical arean and Ms has made that is greatest power base.

I would imagine a great sportsman would have blocked the Monaco track.....sure his superiority is so great he can beat anyone easily...even on a difficult track.

Total BS...he is and remains a driven man.. one whose succes has made him believe that he is to be treated differently to all others.
That he is this way is not surprising... Senna and Prost were the same...Senna leading the way in making F1 a contact sport. But he made no bones about it.. no excuses..up front and honest.
Ms' BS excuses have, to my mind demeaned him so much that he knows full well we know he f#d up and rather than be honest aobut it wraps it up in BS..

I admire MS's record and it demonstrates a dedication and talent that ranks in the to two of three best ever, but that is not greatness....

Its is also very easy to forget the Ferrari victories by Prost, Berger and Alesi in the years prior to MS arriving...as easy as it is to miss their relative success as a leading team in the same time frame. They were not a crap no hope team...by any standards..its bit like saying Williams is a crap no hope team as they have not won a championship for almost 10 years..What they were not is consistent...like the road cars of the era...or McLaren in the same time period...the old guard was being over taken by the young blood and needed time to reorganise themselves and nurture the new generation..that MS was part of that is his good fortune and ability..

As for 15 out of 17... again the figures belie the reality. Ferrari were beaten twice that year... McLaren were not defeated... a mutual assured destruction is different to a defeat.

As for 'my countrymen'.. let me correct you.. I'm not British..

The bias here is not that he is German, happily married etc etc and not a holigan. Its that in a nation whose view is that being great is not only about winning, his approach has not revealed his supposed greatness. Lets face it Senna, hardly less pleasant as an individual and no less determined found a far greater following here and to date he retains far more respect than MS ever had. Some is doubltess due to the manner of his death.. but more because of the approach he took to winning.

I think the issue, and rightly so, is the blurring between the record and the success, which MS monopolised in a manner unlikely to be beaten.. and the manner in which it is achieved...The US looks at success as a quantum.. over here the manner in which you go about things is as, if not, more important...Being a winner counts for nothing if its at 'any cost'...

Believe me Ross Brawn is as disliked here as MS.. for the same reasons....even if he is English.

MS is a modern day gladiator, a victor in the bloody field were all that counts is winning...not the manner of that victory not the peerless ability...in motor racing Fangio demonstrated perhaps the 'greatest' of that mixture...a poise and dedication mixed with a ruthlessness of ability.

Did you guys not see the snippet with Flavio B after the press conference?... His verdict was 'I will not miss him'...so I doubt very much he will return with Renault... remeber thay are the old Benetton team.. as left by Bryne, Brawn and MS...so hardly likely to be very receptive to a return.

As for Kimi... next year is the most important one in his F1 career.. the car is going to be super hot, super reliable and he is going to all alone...not excuses nowhere to hide, especially if Ferrari win the WC....and Alonso will be even more anxious, as will McLaren to demnstrate that they have what it takes.

This sure does not seem like a win at any cost person to me.

Some peoples hate for him and their dedication to dispelling him as a great driver only serves as a testament to his greatness.

This seems to be the nub of your agrument MFAFF - and it is about this that we have to agree to differ.

Your critiscism of MS is based on a handful (maybe only 3 or 4) incidents (and reasonable men could differ about these incidents) over a very long career and seven world championships. The overwhelming balance of his victories were achieved through sheer skill and determination and teamwork - and that is, afterall, the hallmark of the sport.

To suggest that MS is where he is because he somehow wasn't "cricket" or didn't allow others to win - is laughable in light of the statistics and reveals your deep prejudice against the man - as indeed does your reference in the quote about to MS having "monopolized" success at F!.

Schumacher is the greatest thus far, regardless what you think of the man or Ferrari.

I believe DSJ said in his book "The Racing Driver" that at any time the World's greatest EVER driver, is driving a delivery truck somewhere.
We will never know who he/she is, they do not know even know they have it in them.
They just can't understand why everyone is sliding off the road and they aren't, or why the person driving them that day is not slowing down for that problem ahead that hasn't happened yet, but they can see is about to.

So, in short, none of out "heroes" are the greatest ever, they are the BEST at the time for the available equipment and were in the right place at the right time.

Just to play Devils advocate a bit, In any competition I have seen with F1 drivers going up against Rally drivers in a MIXTURE of cars and situations, the Rally drivers always won..........

Michael Schumacher Alain Prost Diff.
Wins: 88 51 37
Podiums: 150 106 44
Poles: 68 33 35
Front rows: 111 86 25
Fastest laps: 73 41 32
Grand Prix led: 136 84 52
Laps led: 4,951 2,683 2,268
Distance led (km): 23,300.818 12,476.698 10,824.120
Distance led (miles): 14,478.505 7,752.704 6,725.8
Driver points: 1,327 798.5 528.5
Laps: 13,501 10,540.6 2,960.400
Distance raced (km): 64,139.83 48,975.913 15,163.917
Distance raced (miles): 39,854.772 30,432.46 9,422.312
Starts: 241 198 43
Appearances: 243 202 41

until Hungary GP


Michael Schumacher Ayrton Senna Diff.
Wins: 88 41 47
Podiums: 150 80 70
Poles: 68 65 3
Front rows: 111 87 24
Fastest laps: 73 19 54
Grand Prix led: 136 86 50
Laps led: 4,951 2,987 1,964
Distance led (km): 23,300.818 13,676.297 9,624.52
Distance led (miles): 14,478.505 8,498.133 5,980.372
Driver points: 1,327 614 713
Laps: 13,501 8,219 5,282
Distance raced (km): 64,139.83 37,936.995 26,202.835
Distance raced (miles): 39,854.772 23,573.156 16,281.616
Starts: 241 161 80
Appearances: 243 162 81

like any sport numbers say more than 1000 words..........

year by year

Michael Schumacher
vs
Ayrton Senna

1991

Michael Schumacher Ayrton Senna Diff.
Wins: 7 -7
Podiums: 12 -12
Poles: 8 -8
Front rows: 11 -11
Fastest laps: 2 -2
Grand Prix led: 10 -10
Laps led: 467 -467
Distance led (km): 2,066.775 -2,066.775
Distance led (miles): 1,284.238 -1,284.238
Driver points: 4 96 -92
Laps: 228 934 -706
Distance raced (km): 1,143.081 4,391.778 -3,248.697
Distance raced (miles): 710.283 2,728.93 -2,018.647
Starts: 6 16 -10
Appearances: 6 16 -10

Michael Schumacher
vs
Ayrton Senna

1992

Michael Schumacher Ayrton Senna Diff.
Wins: 1 3 -2
Podiums: 8 7 1
Poles: 1 -1
Front rows: 1 5 -4
Fastest laps: 2 1 1
Grand Prix led: 1 5 -4
Laps led: 11 95 -84
Distance led (km): 76.714 414.956 -338.242
Distance led (miles): 47.669 257.839 -210.17
Driver points: 53 50 3
Laps: 887 698 189
Distance raced (km): 4,123.261 3,331.643 791.618
Distance raced (miles): 2,562.108 2,070.2 491.907
Starts: 16 16
Appearances: 16 16


Michael Schumacher
vs
Ayrton Senna

1993

Michael Schumacher Ayrton Senna Diff.
Wins: 1 5 -4
Podiums: 9 7 2
Poles: 1 -1
Front rows: 1 3 -2
Fastest laps: 5 1 4
Grand Prix led: 2 6 -4
Laps led: 63 290 -227
Distance led (km): 252.588 1,215.938 -963.35
Distance led (miles): 156.955 755.579 -598.624
Driver points: 52 73 -21
Laps: 726 861 -135
Distance raced (km): 3,482.064 4,002.651 -520.587
Distance raced (miles): 2,163.679 2,487.179 -323.500
Starts: 16 16
Appearances: 16 16


Michael Schumacher
vs
Ayrton Senna

1994

Michael Schumacher Ayrton Senna Diff.
Wins: 8 8
Podiums: 10 10
Poles: 6 3 3
Front rows: 12 3 9
Fastest laps: 8 8
Grand Prix led: 13 2 11
Laps led: 629 26 603
Distance led (km): 2,741.627 116.025 2,625.602
Distance led (miles): 1,703.584 72.096 1,631.488
Driver points: 92 92
Laps: 851 60 791
Distance raced (km): 3,872.425 263.075 3,609.35
Distance raced (miles): 2,406.227 163.47 2,242.757
Starts: 14 3 11
Appearances: 14 3 11


update until hungary GP

Thanks Yellowbird that is a real eye opener. You can see Micheal come of age from '91 to '94.

In general, European racing drivers did not know how to handle corners, they just slowed and turned, no line, no speed estimation, that came from America with tracks like the Indy 500 requiring perferction. Schumacher on the other hand, has had to get his wins against top drivers and teams.

I think that if Micheal's "parking" at Monaco had of been intentional, he'd of made some effort to make it look more like an "incident". It was unapealable though.

Sammy, Mario still lived in the US, and had a heck of a time in F1 when he didn't live near any tracks, not a fun schedule. He was good, quite good, but also was better with mechanical cars, rather then electronic. I feel he'd of croaked in modern F1 even more.

what era are you talking about here??