that print is pretty darn nice...

note to self, visit the Ring...

Again - I dont' think he'd of done well. He himself has talked about modern race cars, and how they didn't suite him any more, especialy F1. He was great in an era of mechanical cars, but thats not how it is today in say, F1. When I picked out my Exoto 312 B - I had a choice of several drivers, and chose M. Andretti. For the 312T, Niki Laudo, sadly, no 312 T2. One of the cool things about Mario, is its stuck in his family.

Those are two awesome pictures, man... I wodner how much one costs. I don't know which I like better, real real tough...


svandamme, how many European's won the Indy 500 in the 1910's, and 1920's?

4 pages of photos:


http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/schumi_eine_karriere.124347.htm

It took me over 1 1/2 hours to download all of the You Tube video...well worth the wait!

in an era where traveling atlantic , took quite some time ( no planes yet Sherlock ) , i doubt any European actually knew the name of the Indy 500...

we had our own tracks, and were quite happy racing on those

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ACF-GP1912.jpg



i'm going to be a bit lazy today, and quote Wikipedia

93 miles of Sicilian roads , vs going round and round the Indy Oval
or maybe 75 miles of Taunus mountains?? of crusing around 48 miles in Dieppe?? i Guess Sicilie had straight highways only...
same for the German mountains...(untill Hitler , claimed to have invented the highway all over again, cheecky bugger he was )
or racing at Brooklands 2 years before Indy even had a track???

seriously Tervuren... exnay on the potsmokingyay

http://www.targaflorio.info/images/t...orio07giro.jpg
artist rendition of a couple of European Drivers who don't know how to corner...dated 1912


http://www.onslows.co.uk/Catalogues/Ps221105/lot81.jpg another one , same date, Dieppes... again , Europeans totally crap at that corner thing..

http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/targa_gi.jpg
map of the Targa Florio race... notice the complete lack of any bends or corners... it's all straight...

I'm hoping, without going back through this thread that the name Stirling Moss is at least mentioned a couple times.

... how come there are no drag racers mentioned ? Imagine how quick they would get through that Targa run.

John

Looking at the pictures that Curt (cegerer) posted, made me wonder if there is anyone at Mercedes or Ford who is still kicking himself for letting Michael get away to Ferrari. Remember, that he was Mercedes' "Golden Boy" from when he left F3 until he joined Beneton, and Ford had a great opportunity with him on the driver list during his Beneton days (if not F3 looking at one of the old pictures).

What might have been?

You guys are all way off base. The greatest driver of all time is clearly John Force. He's won the most championships, hasn't he? Or Steve Kinser; he's won as many or more. Or Richard Petty, with the most race victories garnered by anyone. "Most"="best" doesn't it? And Mohamed Ali would have knocked out Joe Lewis; Mike Tyson could've taken either one...

On the other hand, what might not have been?

Apparently according to this group the only great drivers are in F1 racing.

The RP post was a joke and I find NASCAR about as exciting as watching paint dry however they do race road courses and they are full tube frame race cars in my book that makes them due some respect.

And how about some WRC drivers?

Historically, F-1 is considered to be the top level of racing. Today?
Electronically controlled cars? I have to wonder. Are these guys really the best drivers, or are they merely video game whiz kids who ride along with the game?

Having tracks with lots of turns - does not mean they where experts at cornering. Also, if American driver's still managed to win European races, despite the difficulties of travel, perhaps that says something?

I am not saying whether or not the tracks had turns or not, they both did. I have read accounts of European drivers who did race at Indy, and did not understand the concept of fastest line. Although you look at Indy today, and seee a bunch of flat out driving, Indy's surface hasn't always been that good, neither the cars. No way you'd take it flat out, cornering was very important.

By the 1930's things started evening out was more driver's crossed the Atlantic to compete, and techniques where interchanged, but I'd say pre 1930's, American's where better drivers.

Who do you think is going to learn racing line better? A driver with 200 corners in a races, or with 10? The guy with 10, over the same distance, does it twenty more times. Thats twenty times the experience with that turn, twenty chances to learn a better way, which then applies to other corners he meets. If no one knows about concepts such as a fastest line through a corner, the guy running on a 4 mile circuit, I think would learn it MUCH faster then a guy on 80.

Here you go JCF, Moss and DSJ winning the 1955 MM (The u-ro-peen race 1000 miles in a straight line.....) & inventing pace notes.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158165656.jpg

As for Indy & u-ro-peens that can't go round "corners", I seem to remember Jim Clark getting laughed and jeered at because of his tiny rear engined Lotus... until he won. (I havn't seen any front engined Indy cars for a while...).
Graham Hill is still the only man to win Indy, Le Mans, Monaco gp,and the F1 championship.

http://www.brooklands.org.uk/news/hutch2.jpg

Tervuren , this thing existed before Indianapolis had the Brickyard
i guess it doesn't lend itself well to racing an ideal line does it?

and untill 1922, there were only 2 ovals in the world
Indy and Brooklands...

so in any way , Indy was not exclusive, it's not like the US drivers had ANY advantage in learning how to corner, it's not like there was a big racing scene in the US , there are no really big 1910,20 or 30''ies classic races in the US like Le Mans, Mille Miglia , Targa, Eifell Rennen, are there??ok , Indy500 itself , but it's still a weak event compared to any of those i just mentioned...

Europe is where the bulk of the racing happened, so to say European racers were crap at cornering and we only figured it out from lookign at you boys, is about as accurate as saying that Muscle cars always cornered better then anything Porsche ever made...

I think they were referring to the "fastest line" on an oval with a cement wall next to you at WOT. Not something they had any racing experience with. How the line changes in an oval corner versus a road corner over the course of a race is dramatically different. Watch a Nascar race or IRL race - at certain times during the race the upper, outside, line is faster even tho it is longer and far from the apex. On a road course the classic line changes - but usually only by moving the apex - early or late. Line changes are dictated by obstructions, track degradation or rain.

I am pretty sure Nuvolari, etc, could find the "fastest line".

Correct, Nuvolari was able to find a fairly good line. I've seen videos of him. - the drivers aroudn him in much much faster cars - aren't. Thats why I said its hard to compare him with M. Schumacher, as Schumacher is racing against drivers with very high abilities.

This is a very difficult arquement for either of us to substantiate, but frmo what I've seen and read, European drivers of the early racing era - where not as good. They had superior cars perhaps, but where not as good drivers. Post WWII, I'd say things where much closer.

Golly though, I wish I had more clips from the 1920's and 1930's. I've seen some of Nuvolari at the 'Ring though.

The thought of Brooklands and the "Old" drivers...
Perhaps we should have a thread of drivers with the biggest b***s

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158170095.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1158170108.jpg

Monza 1931

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yeah those lines look way off, they must be slow as hell
i stand corrected... they didn't know how to corner...how foolish of me...

Back to the Schumacher debate...

I think he is an incredibly talented driver and obviously the most succesful in F1 history.

Comparisons are always difficult. Personally I was a great fan of MS since his Le Mans days on the Sauber C9.

I also remember his first laps in the Jordan and the first races in the Benetton.

In the Sauber C9 he was on a par with Harald Frentzen, Jean Schlesser and Karl Wendlinger, all products of the great Mercedes Benz junior racing programme.

In F1 he showed fantastic speed from early on and he could do incredible things (a little bit like Kimi when he started).

His 1st world championship was in 1994, the year Senna and Ratzenberger died. He won 6 of the first 7 races and the Benetton team was under pressure by the allegations of cheating with the traction control. Plus there is the Hill accident controversy.

In 1995 he repeated himself winning the title against... Johnny Herbert

In 1996 he went to Ferrari and nearly collided with Berger at Monaco for slowing down after his qualifying lap when Gerhard was still going for it

In 1997 he hit Villeneuve at the European GP

In 1998 he won the British GP in the pit lane

In 2000 he won his 3rd championship, fair and square against Mikka.

This was the 1st WC for Ferrari in 30yrs and coincided with Ross Brawn and Jean Todd being in the team.

From then onward (signing JT as the team manager) winning at all costs became the mantra at Ferrari.

MS was just the most fitting tool in a well oiled winning machine. I am sure everybody remembers (Autria 2002) Barrichello yielding wins even when there was no need in order to secure the championship.
This was a striking difference from how other teams (namely Williams and McLared) had dealt with 2 top drivers (remember Mansell and Piquet battling at Adelaide only for Prost to take the win in the WC?).

So 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 were dominant years for the Ferrari team and MS

And the rest is recent history.

I was a huge fan of the early MS. The 94 incident reminded me of how Senna and Prost decided their championships at Suzuka...

The 95 title was in a vacuum, against no competition (sorry Hill and Herbert).

I started to dislike him when he moved to Ferrari. And maybe it's funny coming from an Italian but I hate how Ferrari has managed to turn this sport into a win-at-all-costs circus.

I didn't like how MS needed a special #1 driver contract, clearly being that much better than Irvine first, Barrichello second and Massa last.
I didn't like how any controversial decision made outside the track by the FIA ended up defending or not punishing Ferrari.

So I think MS was a victim of the JT approach to winning (remember him at Peugeot for the LeMans bid?).

And for this is not my favourite driver ever.