U.S. automakers and health care costs: build them all in Canada?

[kaisen]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I don't know anything about what autoworkers make.....

http://www.uaw.org/contracts/03/gm/gm02.cfm

GM/UAW starting wages are $24.95/hr for janitors, $25.58 for assembly, up to $30/hr for tool & die. Guaranteed 2-3% annual raises plus COLA.

Ford is slightly higher, DCX is about the same.

Plus all the super health/pension/401K benefits!!

Makes me want to sit on a stool, clip a door panel on boring rental car, and then smoke a cigar.

[dd74]

Originally posted by kaisen

Makes me want to sit on a stool, clip a door panel on boring rental car, and then smoke a cigar.

LOL!

[nostatic]

seems to me this is the last bastion of the "company store" in America. I suppose it has to go down the tubes so it can change. So be it.

And don't blame the docs. Blame Hollywood. It is responsible for all of the problems in this country. No wait, blame the lawyers. No wait, blame the accountants. No wait, BLAME CANADA!

"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life son..."
- Dean Wormer

[Jim Richards]

And don't forget to blame nostatic for injuring himself while carrying out a wanton act of violence against a poor defenseless coyote and then going out and buying a VW.

[red-beard]

Originally posted by kaisen
There is no doubt that medical advancements help quality of life, but that isn't the whole cost story. We aren't any 'healthier' as a society because of it. Obesity and diabetes overpower the other gains. For the first time in hundreds of years our kids are expected to have shorter lives than we will.

Your implication is that life expectancy is mostly related to health care spending. The US has a far more diverse population than those other countries, mirroring closer the world as a whole.

I bet you will find, that the statistical differences are not significant, if you bring in the rest of the world. And I bet the R squared is a lot less than .50

A lot less.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Jim Richards
And don't forget to blame nostatic for injuring himself while carrying out a wanton act of violence against a poor defenseless coyote and then going out and buying a VW.

Did I mention the civil suit that PETA filed on behalf of the coyote's family?

And I'm thinking of selling the VW...and buying another Subaru. So you can blame me twice.

[Jim Richards]

People Eat Tasty Animals

Originally posted by nostatic
And I'm thinking of selling the VW...and buying another Subaru. So you can blame me twice.

Noooooooooooo, not agaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnn!

[nostatic]

eh, we'll see. As cool as the DSG is I miss rowing gears. I'll get so hammered trading it in though I'm not sure it's worth the loss of money. But I can get a WRX wagon for way below invoice right now...

[sammyg2]

I drove a chevy Silverado pickemup for many years. It was built in Canada. I sold it and bought a toyota tundra. it was built in Tennessee.

If toyota can build a good truck in the US and make money on it, Why can't chebby?

[kaisen]

Sammy, did you read the articles?

[dd74]

The one thing I do enjoy about opening the hood on my '02 Mountaineer is that anything written is in both English and French.

It sort of takes the edge off of seeing so many billboards in Spanish around here.

[kaisen]

I've learned a little bit of German over the years by deciphering the stickers under the hoods of my cars.

[74-911]

A very interesting article explaining just how GM, Ford, etc. got in the position they are in re: pensions and health care:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060828fa_fact

Also recently read that the largest unfunded obligations for pensions and retiree health care are in state and local governments. Just another storm on the horizon.

Jack

[artplumber]

Originally posted by red-beard
Your implication is that life expectancy is mostly related to health care spending. The US has a far more diverse population than those other countries, mirroring closer the world as a whole.

I bet you will find, that the statistical differences are not significant, if you bring in the rest of the world. And I bet the R squared is a lot less than .50

A lot less.

Those WHO papers on public health are so full of you know what. The great public health debacle is irresponsibility for health. Just wait until the obesity and diabetes rates in the rest of western europe catch up to the US, and you will see life-expectancies plumet, in countries where you can't get (kidney)dialyzed after age 55, or don't get more than a couple of medicines for your diabetes, coronary disease and heart failure.

[nostatic]

Logan's Run would solve all of this...

[dd74]

Originally posted by nostatic
Logan's Run would solve all of this...

Not to mention solve you and me as well...

[Hugh R]

Originally posted by scottmandue
I don't know anything about what autoworkers make but I took a job with the state and I could make more money working in the private sector however I opted for the state job because of the benefits. Now if those benefits were not in place I would have moved on a long time ago.

That's one of the problems, you get a pension and the general public which pays taxes for your penson doesn't. I read yesterday in the L.A. Times (sorry I'm too lazy to provide a reference) that something like 90% of public employees get a pension, but about 20% of private employer workers get a pension (not refering to a 401k). In some CA cities public employees get a 20/50 plan where if they've worked 20 years and reach age 50 they get a full pension, WTF is up with that? Plus many get retirement on their last years hours, so they work lots of OT. I know a fire captain who made $90K last year and is retiring on over $110K of salary of straight time and OT. He'll be drawing about $95K/year in retirement (SWEET). Many city councils are voting retirement benefits for future generations to pay.

Oh, and about the public sector job paying less, I read in the same article that public sector jobs are now competitive with private sector in many areas and in some cases have better Cost of livings.

[NICKG]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
I think we are all missing the point here.

What are the principal causes for the much higher than c-o-l for medical expenses? Who is profiting the most and most basic, what efforts are being made by society (including the government) to rein in the profits of the medical industry?

Essentially, what has changed since the time when medical coverage was affordable?

I wonder what would happen if large corporations like Ford or GM decided to become "self insured" for medical expenses, with limitations on coverage to eliminate frivilous cases? IMHO, too many industries cave in to the medical "complex" and fail to question the costs.

Yeah, I agree in part with the pension plans being out of control. One of the worst abuses is the near full pay for employees that have been "idled" by cutbacks. A modest pension plan, adequately funded and providing no more than, say, 50% of final average annual wage after, say, 25 years of service and an age of no less than 60 should be do-able and if properly managed, be self sustaining.

you raise an interesting thing, in fact both toyota and nissan are actually doing the self insurance style plans in several plants. They employ full time health care workers, doctors and have a pharmacy devoted only to their workers. if the worker chooses to go off this he is only gonna get a % of the costs reimbursed unless it involves something of a special nature or referral, then it is traditional care.
They did a study and found that the vast majority of healthcare expenses were basically "BS" things like colds, cuts and occasional broken bones(very occasional) and that people would go to the dr if they just felt even the slightest thing wrong...the example was the woman who brought all 3 of her kids to the DR just to make sure they were not getting sick...like 3 tikmes a month
By doing it this way they have cut the costs by like 65% as i recall reading(it may be more as I remember it was freeking huge>>)