PBS special: Ike and JFK forced states to integrate schools, opinions anyone?

jkarolyi · 10-05-2006, 12:45 PM

Was watching PBS yesterday evening and caught their latest documentary on the forced integration of a public high school in Arkansas (Little Rock HS) and a state university in Mississippi (Ole Miss).

Fascinating documentary...presidents Eisenhower and JFK had to send in the military to force federal law on the states. In the case of integrating Ole Miss in 1960, riots broke out in which two people were killed. The streets of Oxford, MS looked like a riot in Paris...burned out cars and buildings.

Was it right for the federal government to impose its law on states to integrate, even when polls said the vast majority of citizens in those states didn't want integration? Do you think we would still see legal segregation today in the southeast if the federal government hadn't forced it to happen?

Interviewers at the time asked a black leader if he thought he was causing a big ruckus and trying to change the south too quickly. His response: "I too, sir, am a gradualist. The emancipation proclamation was given over 90 years ago, and I guess I'd say that's gradual enough".

This should generate some interesting opinions, particularly from a certain confederate OT poster.

legion · 10-05-2006, 12:55 PM

Yeah, we all know what's coming...

What do I think? It was before my time. I know how Hollywood and the media portray how things were in the south (that the KKK more or less controlled all levels of government in all southern states), and I know how it is now. It's hard for me to reconcile the two.

rammstein · 10-05-2006, 01:15 PM

This country was founded on having a weak federal government, with states having the majority of control. It is unfortunate that in that situation, it came down to the federal government stepping in to force a decision that MOST today would feel was right (ending segregation in schools). Hell, the civil war was a war over states' rights. But unfortunately, the states were fighting to keep slaves which makes it hard for us today to look down on the federal government's forcing of its own agenda back then.

How about now? The federal goverment is forcing its anti-drug agenda on states who have voted differently on the issue. Even if you are against the use of medical marijuana, is it better to have the federal govt strip the state of its right to decide because it happens to suppport your viewpoint? Or should the decision be made by a group of your fellow state residents?

Thinking about this, I can't help but to think that because the federal government stepped over its bounds in the past to impose laws which most (nationally) feel are just, that it somehow justified the removal of the individual states' voter rights.

rammstein · 10-05-2006, 01:56 PM

Somebody in my office just brought up a good point. I guess in the case of the civil war and the desegregation issues, the federal govt was in those cases acting on behalf of constitutional violations, so I guess that is perhaps something that the federal govt is justified in doing.

Moses · 10-05-2006, 02:55 PM

The federal attempt to eradicate educational disparity was both legal and proper. Some may argue against the methods used, but the purpose was valid.

Amendment XIV U.S. Constitution;

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

sammyg2 · 10-05-2006, 04:02 PM

Lets hear from the people who's kids were bussed to schools in impoverished areas in the name of integration and see what they have to say.

jkarolyi · 10-05-2006, 04:18 PM

I lived in Charlotte, NC where integration bussing was big. Living in an upper-middle class neighborhood, my neighborhood's designated high school was over an hour's bus ride away in a VERY scary, impoverished area of town.

Needless to say, when I got out of our excellent Jr. High I enrolled in a private Christian high school. Thank God my parents had enough money to send me...some of the other kids in my neighborhood weren't as lucky. Property values were low in our neighborhood because of this, while a neighborhood down a few blocks with smaller houses had higher values because they could stay in local schools.

I still think the harsh measures were necessary and the right thing to do, but I could understand how some people might think otherwise.

fastpat · 10-05-2006, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rammstein
This country was founded on having a weak federal government, with states having the majority of control. It is unfortunate that in that situation, it came down to the federal government stepping in to force a decision that MOST today would feel was right (ending segregation in schools). Hell, the civil war was a war over states' rights. But unfortunately, the states were fighting to keep slaves which makes it hard for us today to look down on the federal government's forcing of its own agenda back then.

How about now? The federal goverment is forcing its anti-drug agenda on states who have voted differently on the issue. Even if you are against the use of medical marijuana, is it better to have the federal govt strip the state of its right to decide because it happens to suppport your viewpoint? Or should the decision be made by a group of your fellow state residents?

Thinking about this, I can't help but to think that because the federal government stepped over its bounds in the past to impose laws which most (nationally) feel are just, that it somehow justified the removal of the individual states' voter rights.

Around 1990-91 a school in Durham county North Carolina was found to be all black. The county and state government decided that it should be integrated, since the principles long ago voiced in Gunnar Myrdal's book continue to be accepted as truth, though proven disastrous for minorities. There was trouble, politically speaking, because the families sending their children to this school had, over time, slowly made the school an all black institution and wanted it to stay that way. Although serious talk ensued, the last I heard, the parents of the children attending the school were successful in keeping the school racially intact.

There are a number of studies that prove integration in k-12 grades has had a huge negative effect on minorities, and absolutely no studies indicating a positive outcome. Naturally, there's political power blocks that have a vested interest in keeping what is now the status quo, but in my opinion, who is in school should be tailored to positive outcomes for each student, not a socialists dream state. The notion that blacks are just dying to associate with whites 6-8 hours a day in school is unmitigated rubbish.

nota · 10-05-2006, 08:33 PM

funny how all the racist christian schools started
right when deseg became the law
btw those are the same schools that now want tax support thru vouchers

I allways thought every kid should go to the closest school
don't like that, MOVE!!!!

did I ever get in trouble in 1956 at age 6 by asking
where are the black kids in this miami Fla school
when I tranfered from detroit to miami
and being told they were not allowed by law
the teacher told me there would be big trouble if the blacks were allowed to go to school with whites
to which I replied no there would not we had black kids in school in detroit and no problems
that was the first of many trips to the office
and perhaps when I knew the CONNs were not just wrong but evil too

jkarolyi · 10-06-2006, 09:42 AM

>funny how all the racist christian schools started right when deseg became the law

How very un-prejudiced of you.

FYI, the Christian school I attended (Adventist) was about 50% white and 50% minorities. Try opening your mind a bit and doing some research as to what a true Christian is.

jkarolyi · 10-06-2006, 09:46 AM

So Pat, I assume by your post that you favor segregated schools?

I'd never have guessed it.

nota · 10-06-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jkarolyi
>funny how all the racist christian schools started right when deseg became the law

How very un-prejudiced of you.

FYI, the Christian school I attended (Adventist) was about 50% white and 50% minorities. Try opening your mind a bit and doing some research as to what a true Christian is.

true followers of JC are liberals
but saddly very few
and even more rare in the southern christian schools

btw % of Adventist schools with NO minority students 37%
% of Adventist schools with NO minority teachers 76%

from a goverment web site
http://nces.ed.gov/pubs/ps/Seventh.asp

jkarolyi · 10-06-2006, 10:39 AM

Interesting stats, they must be only schools in the USA, as we have thousands of schools worldwide. Also keep in mind that many SDA schools in the USA are located in rural areas where minorities aren't found period.

I still say atheist Christian bashers are the most judgemental, tunnel visioned, and closed minded people you'll ever meet. One more score for my theory.

Jeff Higgins · 10-06-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nota
funny how all the racist christian schools started
right when deseg became the law

Not you again.

Do you just pull this biased, hate-filled drivel out of your a$$?

gaijindabe · 10-06-2006, 12:13 PM

I think Moses makes a good case. But the methods used in that era did stink.

We moved where we moved when I was young to take advantage of a very nice local school. By third grade we were being bused all over town. The schools were the same, the funding was the same.. Just plain silly. By Junior High we all would have been in a central school anyway - so what was the big deal? This debacle was not even mandated by the state or Feds, but rather do-gooders on the Board of Ed with kids in private schools or no kids at all... The next town over - lilly white. No busing at all. My hometown? In the shi*ter. Only two people I grew up there with still live there..

nota · 10-06-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Not you again. Do you just pull this biased, hate-filled drivel out of your a$$?

no did you read the whole post about being 6 in 1956
I lived thru the civil right era in the south
and remember when there was such a thing as a liberal member of the GOP and racist southern democrats but darn few southern republicans
and watched the GOP replace the old guard of dixiecrats
the faces were the same just a new party
and the sad fear and hate was the same
they just used new buzz words

sorry if history of the white church esp in the racist school era
is something you donot want to admitt to
but a quick check of the dates that most southern christian schools opened will match the orders to deseragrate the public schools in that region

sammyg2 · 10-06-2006, 12:43 PM

NOTA=tool.

My kids go to a private lutheran school. Most of the students there are white. Most of the teachers there are white.
That has absolutely nothing to do with racism. It has to do with a lutheran religion that is mostly white. It has to do with the mostly white affluent area that supports the school and the fact that is costs a great deal of money to send kids there.
Racism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Most of the students' parents don't want to send them to a public school that is overloaded with children of illegal immigrants who barely speak english but that has more to do with the quality of education they will get in private school and won't get in a public school where everything is taught in english and spanish.

nota · 10-06-2006, 12:57 PM

jkarolyi checking your profile you were born in 1974
so started school in about 1980
while bussing and court orders were still ineffect then
the era of racist private christian schools was over by then
even the hard core racist gave up
when the predicted race war just didnot happen

I grew up summering in detroit and attended school there intill
it snowed when we headed south to Fla for the winter
so attended both mixed and all white schools in the same year

nota · 10-06-2006, 01:07 PM

sammyg2
just what does orange ct Ca in 2006 have to do with the racist
christian schools opened in the south in the 60's?

fastpat · 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jkarolyi
So Pat, I assume by your post that you favor segregated schools?

I'd never have guessed it.

I favor schools that work to educate the students that attend them. I fuyllyt support the black families in Durham that figured out that their children were doing much better in the secregated school than when they were attending an integrated school. You clearly know nothing of the problem integration caused for black academics.

Figures. Most knee-jerk liberals think that blacks do better in the presence of and associating with whites. If that's not a racist notion, I'd like to know what is.

As a point in fact, I favor no public schools of any kind, and would like to see a wrecking ball taken to every one of them that exists today. They're little more than sociofascist training camps and/or day-care centers.