"Christian Conservatives" Take Note

[Rodeo]

It's pretty much an open secret in Washington that the Republican establishment really does not like the Religious Right. They court their votes, to be sure, but when the lights go down, at best the pols forget them, at worst they ridicule them. Behind closed doors, the politicians backed by the rural, Christian right look a lot more like the dreaded "intellectual elite establishment" than they do the rural folks that support them.

The Foley scandal has cast a harsh light on all this, of course. These guys, or their staff, spend their days writing "pro family" speeches and legislation, while many of them spend their nights in leather bars, or worse.

A new book by George Bush's former head of the faith-based initiative office not only confirms this, but adds many gallons of fuel to the fire. And the guy has religious, conservative credentials that can't be touched. I haven't read it yet, it's just coming out, but Olberman has been quoting it for the past two nights, and the quotes I heard are devastating.

Surprise, surprise, the Bush admin plays religion for politics. But the scorn and ridicule heaped on the religious right by this admin (Karl rove in particular), and the depth of the cynicism and manipulation, truly is startling.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

As reprehensible as the Foley situation is, along with I'm sure thousands of other sleazy actions and behaviors on the part of BOTH political parties, the one single good thing that came out of it is undermining the agenda of the religious right. That single group represents the greatest threat to this nation and ANYTHING that undermines their agenda, exposes them, makes them look bad or otherwise discredits them has SOME sort of redeeming value, IMO.

I'm in no way defending what Foley did (personally I think he belongs in pound-me-in-the-ass-prison for the rest of his days), but the one nugget of goodness that came out of the whole mess is that it frustrates the R.R. and did serious damage to "their" party. If it serves to split the R.R. vote - good. If it means fewer of them show up at the polls, also good. America wins in either case. People with a religious agenda have no business in government.

[Jeff Higgins]

Not surprising in the least, Rodeo. I think when we examine the nature of people attracted to positions of power these days we will see this kind of hollow "allegiance" to just about any cause they may champion. The people themselves, and the culture surrounding Washington have become so tainted by the power and money available that that has become their only true calling. I just wish more folks would realize that, and go about the task of upsetting that little apple cart.

I would venture to guess that the average voter that uses Christian values as a factor in their decisions will not be overly influenced by this news. Some may see that as hypocrisy and, to a degree, it is. I think what is more important to these voters, however, is the nature of the legislation they can expect to see from their representatives. "These guys, or their staff, spend their days writing "pro family" speeches and legislation..." The "and legislation" part is what they are looking for. The fact that their personal lives may involve leather bars, gay bars, or whatever, is secondary. I think most voters, while they may not yet have come to expect this level of sleaze from their elected representatives, are no longer surprised to hear of it. Pretty sad state of affairs.

So the choice for Christian voters has, rather pragmatically, boiled down to this. Vote for the guy that extols Christian values publicly, makes fun of them privately, and sleazes around after hours. Or, vote for the guy that is actively working to undermine Christian values in our society, makes fun of them publicly, and sleazes around after hours. Guess which one they vote for?

[RallyJon]

Was this news to you? I would bet that more liberal democrats than republicans overestimate the influence of christian conservatives in government.

It's kind of like the relationship between Democrats and... oh, their entire base.

Both sides have to act sincere and make a few token gestures to keep the extreme 33% on either end placated.

[Rodeo]

Well, there's lots of ways to deal with that other than the Faustian bargain Jeff describes. Voting for phonies and fakes just stinks of moral and societal decay. No good can possibly come of it.

Without getting too complicated, I think the solution is twofold:

1. Stop demonizing "the left." They do not "undermine Christian values" or make fun of them publicly." If I believe, for instance, that homosexuality is an acceptable moral behavior (and I do), that does not mean that I am making fun of people that feel differently.

2. The second point is related to the first. As best I can tell, Christ had no feelings one way or the other on gay marriage or flag burning or same sex adoption. And the bible never mentions abortion. These issues involve morality, but they should not implicate this crazy religion/politics mix we have today. That the "Christian Conservatives" have co-opted these issues for themselves, and mixed them with politics, is a source of great weakness for our country. They should be separated.

[Rodeo]

And just to clarify, if I knew someone I was supporting because of her stance on civil rights, for instance, was a closet racist, I would NOT vote for that person.

Especially if, as is the case with the religious right, she failed to deliver on any substantive civil rights policies. These guys are not giving you anything, they just wave it in front of your face, get your vote, and then put it in the closet until the next election.

[hunter914]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins

So the choice for Christian voters has, rather pragmatically, boiled down to this. Vote for the guy that extols Christian values publicly, makes fun of them privately, and sleazes around after hours. Or, vote for the guy that is actively working to undermine Christian values in our society, makes fun of them publicly, and sleazes around after hours. Guess which one they vote for?

Clearly you should vote for the latter. You know where he stands. The former (republicans) can't be trusted because they lie to your face, as Jeff so aptly pointed out.

if I know where someone stands, I can make a valid attempt to change his mind, get him to come over to my side.

If someone lies to me, there is no hope for anything but disappointment. But then Christians are always saying one thing but practicing another, so I can see why they place faith in Bush.

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Rodeo
It's pretty much an open secret in Washington that the Republican establishment really does not like the Religious Right.

I'm still trying to figure out what an "OPEN SECRET" is? Must be like Jumbo shrimp or something...

which reminds me - hey tabs - what's on the buffet menu today?!?

Sorry, it's Friday, after a long aggravating week at work...
-Z

[Wrecked944]

Originally posted by hunter914
...But then Christians are always saying one thing but practicing another...

That's kind of harsh, don't ya think? I can only speak about catholicism. And in the catholic view, it is fully acknowledged that everyone is a sinner and nobody *actually* lives up to the perfect ideal. You get credit (in the form of forgiveness) for trying your best. Granted, some act as though they are perfect and can judge others. But on the whole, I think most catholics (and probably most other Christians) understand the whole "hate the sin but love the sinner" thing.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Rodeo
1. Stop demonizing "the left." They do not "undermine Christian values" or make fun of them publicly."

Originally posted by hunter914
But then Christians are always saying one thing but practicing another, so I can see why they place faith in Bush.

[Superman]

I have a hard time believing that Christians sin. They're told not to, and many seem to present the image that they don't. Check your data more carefully. Can't be right.

[hunter914]

Originally posted by Z-man
I'm still trying to figure out what an "OPEN SECRET" is? Must be like Jumbo shrimp or something...


-Z

Red Lobster has all you can eat shrimp right now.

[hunter914]

Originally posted by JanusCole
That's kind of harsh, don't ya think? I can only speak about catholicism. And in the catholic view, it is fully acknowledged that everyone is a sinner and nobody *actually* lives up to the perfect ideal. You get credit (in the form of forgiveness) for trying your best. Granted, some act as though they are perfect and can judge others. But on the whole, I think most catholics (and probably most other Christians) understand the whole "hate the sin but love the sinner" thing.

Sinners make better lovers!

[sammyg2]

Some people will stop at nothing to take a shot at those with religious beliefs. Clearly they feel insecure in their "non-belief".

[Rodeo]

Rick, quote a political leader making fun of Christians and you'll have a point. I don't think you can.

Its these values issues that the Christian/political machine has morphed into religious issues that are the sore spot.

Like I said, disagreement over "values issues" is not the same as "making fun" of your religion. Not even in the same ballpark.

[T_Samner]

Originally posted by Porsche-O-Phile


That single group represents the greatest threat to this nation and ANYTHING that undermines their agenda, exposes them, makes them look bad or otherwise discredits them has SOME sort of redeeming value, IMO.

Can you clarify by what you mean by this? For example, are you a thief and you don’t like that the Bible says you shouldn’t steal? Are you a liar and don’t like that the Bible says you shouldn’t lie? Are you an adulterer and don’t like that the Bible says you shouldn’t be an adulterer? Do you worship idols and don’t like that the Bible says that you shouldn’t worship idols? Please give specific examples of the things you like don’t like about the religious right.

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Rodeo
Rick, quote a political leader making fun of Christians and you'll have a point. I don't think you can.

Did you say political leaders? Let's check:

Originally posted by Rodeo
1. Stop demonizing "the left." They do not "undermine Christian values" or make fun of them publicly." If I believe, for instance, that homosexuality is an acceptable moral behavior (and I do), that does not mean that I am making fun of people that feel differently.

Ah, so you mention "the left". Then you give yourself as an example. Do you consider yourself a political leader?

Sorry that your mini-me proved you wrong 2 posts later, but waffling won't fix it now.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally posted by JanusCole
That's kind of harsh, don't ya think? I can only speak about catholicism. And in the catholic view, it is fully acknowledged that everyone is a sinner and nobody *actually* lives up to the perfect ideal. You get credit (in the form of forgiveness) for trying your best. Granted, some act as though they are perfect and can judge others. But on the whole, I think most catholics (and probably most other Christians) understand the whole "hate the sin but love the sinner" thing.

Thanks Janus; you clearly understand the dynamic far better than most. This thread is, once again, displaying the depth of miss-understanding among non-Christians of the most basic tenets of Christianity. Of course "...Christians are always saying one thing but practicing another...". Christians, more than anyone else, recognize that nature in themselves. The acknowledge it to a greater degree than anyone on the "outside" will ever understand.

Originally posted by Rodeo
Well, there's lots of ways to deal with that other than the Faustian bargain Jeff describes. Voting for phonies and fakes just stinks of moral and societal decay. No good can possibly come of it.

Without getting too complicated, I think the solution is twofold:

1. Stop demonizing "the left." They do not "undermine Christian values" or make fun of them publicly." If I believe, for instance, that homosexuality is an acceptable moral behavior (and I do), that does not mean that I am making fun of people that feel differently.

2. The second point is related to the first. As best I can tell, Christ had no feelings one way or the other on gay marriage or flag burning or same sex adoption. And the bible never mentions abortion. These issues involve morality, but they should not implicate this crazy religion/politics mix we have today. That the "Christian Conservatives" have co-opted these issues for themselves, and mixed them with politics, is a source of great weakness for our country. They should be separated.

In an ideal world, my "Faustian bargain" would be unnecessary. Pragmatically speaking, in today's two party system, it is. Would that we will someday manage to unseat these two corrupt parties; until then, we are stuck voting what each of us perceives as the lesser of two evils.

Rodeo, I'm affraid it stands as an indisputible fact that many on the left, many of its most vocal spokespersons, do make fun of whom they perceive to be somewhat dim or unenlightend for believing the Christian "fairy tale". Hell, it happens right here, in our little microcosm of the world. Maybe you do not personally (and for that I commend you) but the left certainly does as a whole. And they do work tirelessly to undermine Christian values. The pro-gay marriage proponents, pro-abortion proponents, and others are diametrically opposed to Christian values. Being on the outside looking in you may not feel that way. Christians on the inside looking out, however, do feel that way. It has been one of the greater miss-calculations of the Left to discount this (as you have here).

Christ most certainly does have feelings about homosexuality. One cannot read The Bible and escape that fact. No, The Bible does not specifically mention gay marriage. Nor does it mention abortion. It does not have to. God's position comes through loud and clear on both issues for anyone who has seriously studied and contemplated His message. The lawyer in you make not see the specific references; the rest of us don't have to.

[scottmandue]

I'm a Christian and I vote Democrat most of the time... because they usually have the better person for the job IMHO.

FWIW I don't check the religious affiliation of my doctor, electrician, gardener, etc. either.

Sorry for not falling in line with you Christian stereotypes.

Also interesting that you are all commenting on a book no one has even read yet but I suppose your superpowers that allow you to know what all Christians think and do also works is in knowing what is in a book before you have read it.

[Rodeo]

Jeff hit the nail on the head. He thinks homosexuality is a religious issue, and not only that, it's a religious issue that requires a political response. Hence the cauldron of religious/political animosity we find ourselves in.

The cauldron is what has him voting for people he knows to be liars and fakes.

I don't think homosexuality or flag burning has any business on anyone's religious/political agenda. I don't think there should be any such thing as a religious/political agenda. I think the country would be better off separating the two.

(Tom Jefferson thought the same thing)