Comfort Maker Furnace Sucks! Heating techs help please.

MotoSook · 10-14-2006, 03:43 PM

Internation Comfort Products out of Lewisburg, TN, and their cheapo furnace sucks! Last summer I had a nice puddle in the furnace and on my basement floor because the AC coil wasn't draining like it should. Nothing wrong with the AC coil, but the design puts the drain at "not the lowest part" by my analysis. The result was a fried motor control and relay board. Cost me over 500 bucks to fix it with a universal board, because two heating companies couldn't find the replacement part! It still leaks when the AC is on! Sure it drains but some of the water spills over into the furnace and into the blower housing. Freaking unacceptable design.

So this week we turn the heater on for the first time and the ignition module has crapped out! My heating guy has a hard time tracking down the module, so I called the factory for help. After being on hold for too long, I get a customer service rep who ask me for user and model information only to tell me afterward that they can't give me a distributor list or dealer list to call for a replacement part. HUH!? Nice customer service. Why? Because I'm not a dealer or distributor! If I were one I wouldn't have called the Customer Service number! Of course I got hot because the guy said he couldn't give me any information. WTF. Is the number for customer fufu ... WTF..then the guy hangs up on me.

So I find a dealer/distributor list on line to only be told that they won't talk to me because I'm not a dealer or contractor. WTFFF!

OK. So I tell my heating guy to call the distributor/dealer, and they give my guy the same atitude! They want him to prove he's a heating contractor! OMFFFFG!

My guy finally tracks down an ignition module and brings it to me. I swap it in and nothing. Nothing!

I have worked with heating systems and heaters that put out millions of Btu and this 30,000 Btu POS is giving me fits.

Alright, enough ranting.

Here's the problem.

The original ignition module is making an aweful noise when it's trying to ignite. I measure the voltage at the "Spark" terminal and it's 150 VAC+. The module is a 24VAC module! The ignitor doesn't come one, but the pilot gas is on. The module is opening the pilot valve. There's current at the PV terminal, and the pilot will light if I put a flame to it. It will stay light for a while, but the main burner won't light as there is not current to the main valve to open it.

So the module must be the problem. My heating guy tells me the people he talked to also said the module shouldn't be putting out so much voltage to the ignitor. (True?)

My heating guy brings me a Honeywell 8100U module to replace the Honeywell S8100M module that is on the furnace. I'm getting 28 volts to the module, but when the furnace is suppose to start I get no current to the pilot valve, no current to the ignitor. So the replacement module must be bad!

The screwy thing is that the ignition system is odd ball as I've seen. The ignitor or glow plug doesn't look like a glow plug. It looks more like a sensor that I've seen before. The ignition system doesn't have a separate flame sensor. So the ignitor must double as a sensor too. Kinda funky unless the pilot is timed (which I think it is), but since the main gas valve is not opening the pilot (after I manual light it) will go out.

I can't rule out that some other heating tech put an incorrect ignitor in there, but the furnace worked fine last winter.

Anyhow, is there a furnace tech that can tell me if the ignition module should be putting out that much voltage? It shouldn't be making any noise when it's trying to start right?

Looks like I'll be collecting spare parts for my furnace to store with all my spare porsche parts! OR get a new furnace! A brand that I can easily get parts and service for. Then I'll hire a helicopter to go drop the old furnace from 500 feet into the corporate offices of International Comfort Products! I've never dealt with more ignorant people, and I deal with manufacturers and distributors just about every day!

bell · bell's Garage

wow that sucks....especially with this cold spell we're getting.
the furnace in my house also leaks a little with the a/c, from what i can tell is heater/ac systems are pretty much custom installed by people who don't really know what their doing in many cases.
my current furnace has an electronic igniter and uses no pilot light, never seen anything like that before.....
old house i had a problem when we tried to fire up the furnace last fall, the thermostat thing which sits in the pilot flame had gone bad, the new one would work but took quite some time to get it to stay lit due to air in the gas lines....was a real pia.
good luck

Moneyguy1 · 10-14-2006, 07:19 PM

Write a letter, including copies of any e-mails, other written correspondence, and a log of phone calls to your State Attorney General and the State Attorney General in their state. Make the letter factual, civil and detailed. Even the great Hewlett-Packard caved in after denying payment for a repair. Believe me, persistance pays off. Also: Call your local library, get an address and name of the CEO and send him a copy(return receipt requested, deliver to addressee only) . They HATE to find out that their product is getting negative attention.

Not clear where you bought it. Is it still in warranty? Have you contected the outlet you bought it from? If so, and they have not satisfied you, have you written a formal complaint to the local Better Business Bureau?

Good luck.

MotoSook · 09:45 AM

Bell, the new furnaces that I have seen installed in the past 5 years (maybe longer) have been electric start units, so they don't have the always on pilot light and thermocouple like in the old furnaces.

My POS ComfortMaker's start sequence goes like this (by my analysis):

1- call for heat by the thermostat

2-power is sent to the ignition module by the control relay board and the draft blower is turned on.

3-when the draft blower is verified (via a vacuum switch), then the pilot gas valve is open by the ignition module

4-pilot light is ignited with the glow plug or spark plug

5-after a per-set time, the main gas valve is open and the furnace is in full heat mode. If the main flame is not detected, the main gas valve is shut off and the start sequence reinitiates.

My pilot light is not coming on by itself because the ignitor/spark plug is not heating up or sparking. There is voltage to the ignitior/spark plug from the ignition module, but it's well over 160 volts! I don't know if that is normal. My heating guy says it's not, and he does not have a new ignitor/spark plug to give me, one more hard to find part! (Thanks Comfort Product dealers/distributors!)

I can manually light the pilot valve, but it will go out after several seconds. The pilot valve is probably timed, and the light goes out as it should, but the main gas valve is not opening. The main gas valve is controlled by the ignition module. The module is opening the pilot valve, as I can measure voltage to it, and I have gas at the tip of the pilot light (as verified with a lighter).

So two things I know for sure is not working: 1-ignitor/spark plug is not working either because of a faulty ignitor/plug or it is because of a faulty ignition module. 2-the main gas valve is not opening because it is not getting 24 volts from the ignition module.

I'm going to have to take off work Monday and fix this thing (Thanks Comfort Product!). If this furnace isn't working by Wednesday I'm going to have to go buy a few oil heater for the house or move the family to a warm hotel or the in-laws while I go into assault mode in order to get action from a Comfort Product distributor or dealer...or the corporate office. The temperature is dipping further mid week and the fireplace we are currently using is not going to cut it.

I did not select the furnace, it came with the house, but it's only about 5 years old. Judging from the service stickers on the furnace, I'd say that the PO's of the house had issues with it too! Perhaps the dealers are being less than cooperative because they know it's a POS, and it'll require repeated call backs! I've been nice with these guys so far, but this is getting to be rediculous.

bell · bell's Garage

what about upgrading to a different ignition/spark setup?
a spark plug could do the job if you think about it.....a high temp spark will always ignite natural gas, if you have a signal to trip it then it sounds like you just need to get the pilot to light.......
if you manuall light the pilot is the furnace going into "full heat"?
if so you just need to get the igniter to function.
do you know any contractors who may have a lead on someone in the hvac industry? always speeds things up with someone on the inside

again....good luck.

Moneyguy1 · 10-15-2006, 06:32 PM

Natural gas and cobbled control systems are not a marriage made in heaven....

Brian 162 · 10-16-2006, 06:21 PM

Sounds like the A-coil is sloping the wrong way. As far as the heat goes I am wondering if your heating guy got the correct ignition board. From what I remember ICP high effiency furnaces uses the Honeywell smart valve. The HSI is small with a seperate sensor that plugs into the gas valve.(3 wires ) It should read 24 volts when calling for heat. I am guessing as I don't know the type of ignition system your furnace has. FWIW up here HVAC suppliers won'y sell parts without a license.

MotoSook · 11:11 PM

The furnace is finally working!

Brian,

The ignition module is a Honeywell S8600M unit, now replaced with the 8610U universal module. The smart valve (pilot and main valve in one) is fine.

I finally got an ICP certified guy out tongiht, and as soon as the old ignition module tried to start the furnace he knew it was trying to ignite, but it was "arcing internally." That explains the noise it was making. (sounds like a spark plug when you ground it to the engine case when testing for spark..but amplified by the Honeywell module's housing, sounds like a buzzing)

I'm pretty sure the first crew I had out to fix my fried blower control board caused this, but it's been months so I can't do much about it. They left the spark plug wire disconnected after they left. I have no idea why they disconnected it, as the blower control board has nothing to do with the ignition system, and it's in a separate compartment! So when we went to turn the heater on for the first time this fall, the ignition module was pulsing the spark plug, but since it was not connected it ultimate found a path to arc across....internally! That's my analysis.

The second crew that came out in the summer brought me a universal Honeywell blower control board after the first crew couldn't get a board for me to get the AC working. This was back in July or June. When the heater didn't work this past week, I called the second crew back out, and they agreed with me that the ignition module was kaputs. But they were not ICP certified or a dealer, so they couldn't give me a conclusive analysis. After much frustration (me and the second crew) with the ICP dealers and suppliers to get a new ignition module, the second crew finally tracked down an ignition module. Their first supplier wanted something like $200 bucks for the ignition module (contractor cost to the second crew!), but they kept looking, as did I for a reasonable supplier. I found one online for $120. and I told my second crew. They got one for me and only charged me $120 for it.

This new module, an 8610U, that I got from the second crew over the weekend came with instructions, but it was stupid. I write specs and instructions for control equipment as part of my engineering job, and I still got it wrong with the instruction! There are only 7 terminals used on the ignition module and the three smart valve terminals are combined in a single connector, the other four are, 24-gnd (neutral), 24V, GND (chassis) and Spark . The power connections for the universal module was varied slightly (one terminal change on the ignition module board) from the original module, but the instruction is incorrect! So it still did not work for me.

So I called a certified ICP dealer who was able to send someone out. The tech who came out was the guy who said the module was arcing internally. He put in a module he had and it worked! BUT!!! He wanted to charge me $425 for the damn thing when I knew it cost them less than $100! So I told him to take the module out and go away. I still had to pay him $79 dollars to come out. Fine! I'd rather wait for my second crew to get me another ignition module than pay someone 300% mark up.

Anyhow, after he left I put the universal module (from the second crew, and which I thought was faulty) into the circuit, and swapped one of the power terminal....then it worked! Still contrary to the instructions!

Apparently, the ICP certified techs were trained to make the proper terminations and all other heating guys get to fumble around, including a degreed engineer!-me.

My second crew was not ICP certified, but they were honest! The owner was honest about the cost of the part, and he was available after hours since he lives in the area. He wasn't confident enough about troubleshooting the system, but between the two of us we knew pretty much know what was wrong. The frustration with dealing with the ICP network was just too much for us. Those ICP guys treated this stuff like it was a secret of the "brotherhood of rip-off artists!" They wouldn't talk to me about troubleshooting or parts availability. Even the second crew was blown off by the area's leading distributor of ICP parts.

I'm gonna have to buy spares off E-bay or online suppliers for this damn thing. Hell there are only about 3 control components that can go wrong with it (smart valve, igniton module and blower control board). Come next summer I still have to deal with an improperly installed AC coil, otherwise I'll fry another control board when the condensation starts running everywhere. Last summer, I even had water in the blower housing which I could hear getting spun around by the blower. It's a wonder the condensation didn't short out anything more than the control board.

I might as well buy a Trane or Carrier and put this POS ComfortMaker in my garage for less critical service. So It's been an expensive HVAC lession this year. ICP Dealers...the Motormeister of furnaces!

Brian 162 · 10-17-2006, 04:38 PM

Souk, I live that story 3 or 4 times a year, usually on the coldest day of the year. The company that I work for are not a Lennox dealer. If I get a call on a Lennox rooftop and I need parts, forget about it.Zero support. What happens is 2 large companies butt heads for a week then send the part. The only one who suffers is the customer who is freezing and trying to run a business.

MotoSook · 10-17-2006, 05:34 PM

Wonderful Capitalism...