Wayne, when are we getting rid of the Cayenne forum?

[Dottore]

A very good friend of mine in Germany drove a friend's Cayenne Turbo through the Alps for a week.

Now this is a serious car guy who has been into club and vintage racing all of his live and whose opinion on these matters I very much respect.

Anyway, he tells me the Cayenne Turbo is the best car he has ever driven. Period.
He claims it outperforms just about anything and is the most versatile car on the planet (four door sports car, sporty limo, SUV etc whatever you want to call it).

And it is the vehicle of choice of the Russian Mafia. Must be something to it.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by svandamme
dammit Milt ,
still spelling errors !!

gonna have to start another spelling and grammar thread...

Yep, spell check doesn't deferentiate between "nest" and "next," a common mistake I make.

Or did I misspell Panamera?

[Milu]

Originally posted by Dottore


And it is the vehicle of choice of the Russian Mafia. Must be something to it.

Now we're getting somewhere The Russian Mafia is forcing Porsche to keep it in the sales catalogue and Wayne in the active Forum List

[nick911rs]

I bought one and drive it every day, and there's no russian in me !

[Moneyguy1]

I did drive one, at the local VW/Porsche dealer here (Baudry's). Only for about 15 minutes, mind you, but at least I drove one. It was very nice, very stable, but, IMHO, not as "utilitarian" as other marques, had no third row or provision for same, and just overpriced for what you got.

[911teo]

The Cayenne is the best family car there is out there right now.

The new M5 and 55AMG have better dynamics but have limited luggage space. I wish they imported the 55 Wagon here (or even the C55 wagon) but no luck there.

We testdrove the E500 wagon and the Cayenne was a much more rewarding drive.

It's funny but I could buy anything Porsche offers right now and I have no desire of owning a 997 (yep not even the 997 GT3 RS). But we have a Cayenne

The way I see it Porsche AG is now another luxury car manufacturer.
The soul that was so present in the older cars is now gone.
So Porsche AG has lost me as a sports' car customer but got me as a family car customer. I think in fact we'll trade the Cayenne in for a Panamera as the 2 little girls will be 4 and 6 by then.

From a pure shareholder perspective losing a sports car customer to win a family guy customer is pure gravy, especially when the return on both cars is the same.

I find myself in a wierd position because I wish PAG went back to racing, offered a stripped out hearth and soul sports car etc... But on the other end I am building myself "my" ultimate 911 and I am glad PAG produces the Cayenne (and the Panamera) so that I can have a rewarding drive whitout having to deal with anything approved by Chris Bangle or that my dad would drive.

As far as the enthusiast crowd vs soccer moms argument... Well I don't think 50% of the 997s are driven by enthusiasts. And I believe you can make the same argument with Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

[Noah930]

Depends on what you mean by "successful."

When a car company develops a new model, builds a new factory to produce it, etc., there is a budgeted projected sales volume. They ramp up the factory to produce that volume.

If they can sell each projected one at full MSRP, that's a huge success. If they sell 1/10 that amount, it probably wouldn't see it's third year of production.

I don't recall the exact numbers for the Cayenne, but I do know that it never sold anywhere near what was projected.

Roughly, as I recall, it needed to sell 25,000 per year, and it sold roughly half that the first few years, with sales declining each and every year since its introduction.

Is that a success? Well, Porsche selling 12,500 of any model is relatively high volume, for Porsche. But is that a success when you expected to sell 25,000 per year? I don't think so.

The proof of it's failure is in the pudding. It is very unusual for sales to be so bad that a factory completely shuts down production for a year. Particularly on a new model that has only been out a few years. The havoc that must be causing on Porsches financials must be staggering. The situation must have been very, very bad for them to take that drastic, almost unheard of action. There's just no way to spin it.

The scariest part for Porsche is that the sales weren't very good right out of the box, when it had a high novelty factor. And then every year, despite a ton of advertising, sales continued to fall significantly.

It's just a vehicle that doesn't make high volume sales sense. I just don't see how they can possibly turn around sales of it. It seems dead in the water.

I'd like to see someone produce some actual numbers on this. No IIRC, but real numbers from some semi-respectable source.

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
I think that only people who have actually driven one should be allowed to comment on them...

-Wayne

I've never driven a 917. Can't I comment that I believe it was one of the greatest race cars Porsche produced? Oh well, I'm off to buy a Suburban...so I can join the Corvette club!

[nostatic]

I would buy one if I had a bunch of disposable cash and use it as a daily driver and tow vehicle. One of the POC guys uses his Cayenne to tow his race car.

And David, you need to get to the track more. Plenty of modded 996/997/986 cars. As for street, this is no different than 20 years ago. You did not see very many modded 3.2 Carreras when there were only a few years old.

What seems to be lost in this discussions is that when new, Porsches are bought mostly by people wanting a status car that goes fast. A small percentage are what *we* would consider enthusiasts. The hardcore crowd here don't pick them up (usually) until they are cheaper. And by that time, they need to be modded to perform anywhere near a new econobox.

I just don't quite get what all the grousing is about...people with money buy these cars new. Then they buy something else after awhile. But I don't think the company has "lost their way." It is the same way it's always been...they sell expensivve cars to rich people, and make some of the best out of the box limited production cars around (GT3 anyone?).

[Brillo]

Originally posted by VaSteve
Whenever I see one pass me, I try and look at the driver. They are usually driven by people that don't fit the demographic of "enthusiasts".

Maybe they are, but I have never seen people that look like them at the track or any other PCA event

Originally posted by EdT82SC
So what exactly does an enthusiast look like? The people I see at PCA events are as varied as the human race. They are young, old, thin, fat, and all different ethnicities. Don't judge a book by the cover.

+1
I was wondering what an "enthusiast" looked like as well. Wears a Porsche cap? Gold chain?

I didn't realize being an "enthusiast" was a requirement for driving one.

[Brillo]

Originally posted by Isabo
The last five posts are spam and date back to 29 September. Even the mods don't visit it.

I don't think the forum should be removed, there are lots of little or unused forums on here. FWIW I do think the SPAM should be removed in a timely manner.

Todd, I was considering it for a tow vehicle and daily driver. After reading about the towing lights problems and Porsche AG's unwillingness to rectify it (and other problems) I was very discouraged. Along with the terrible Porsche dealerships I have encountered, I really am not very interested in buying a new Porsche of any type. I really dread the thought of taking one to a dealership for anytype of service based on my experience with them in recent years with the Boxster.

[Dottore]

Originally posted by Brillo
I really am not very interested in buying a new Porsche of any type. I really dread the thought of taking one to a dealership for anytype of service based on my experience with them in recent years with the Boxster.

I think this is a real issue for many people. I know no one anywhere with good things to say about their Porsche dealership. This may be worth a seperate thread.

[MysticLlama]

I'd like an S in another few years once they come down in price a little more.

Having the Boxster be the "practical" car that can haul stuff is still a bit of a stretch.

I'd of course like a Turbo, but they are going to be a lot more $$ for a lot longer, I won't actually use it on the track because it'd decimate my little SC and that'd just look funny, and it seems like it'd be more maintenance, etc. anyway.

The forum might start getting used in a couple years when they are cheaper and people like me get ahold of them.

[goldgunner]

Has anyone ever studied - much less guessed - at how many 911 owners who consider themselves enthusiasts, in the U.S. alone, there are - versus - the Pelican tribe?

Could be that the Pelican tribe/cult/group/membership is a rather meaningless percentage of the whole population of those who mod, rebuild, race, ride and enjoy 911's of all types. Seems there wouldn't be the many successful competitors to Pelican selling lots of parts if there weren't...

And yup - I've driven all the SUV's and owned a bunch and the Cayenne is without peer. I figure handling, horsepower, styling and hauling are criteria.

After a dozen trips between DFW and Austin on the most boring interstate possible, hauling college kid stuff and care packages - I'm pretty darn sold on the Cayenne Turbo as the road hauler of choice.

[speeder]

Originally posted by Dottore
A very good friend of mine in Germany drove a friend's Cayenne Turbo through the Alps for a week.

Now this is a serious car guy who has been into club and vintage racing all of his live and whose opinion on these matters I very much respect.

Anyway, he tells me the Cayenne Turbo is the best car he has ever driven. Period.
He claims it outperforms just about anything and is the most versatile car on the planet (four door sports car, sporty limo, SUV etc whatever you want to call it).

And it is the vehicle of choice of the Russian Mafia. Must be something to it.

One of my best friends in L.A. wound up w/ a turbo Cayenne for a month and drove it from Aspen to SoCal and back. I can tell you that everyone I've ever met who has driven this vehicle has a hard time finding the words to describe it. "Makes everything else feel like a POS" comes about closest.

[Noah930]

CS119...

Thanks for that G-S report. Interesting. Everything I've read about the Cayenne has had a very different (and prosperous) view. Perhaps all the auto-rags and media have been fooled by Porsche's PR releases.

I couldn't find the sales numbers through a quick Google search, like you suggested. But from other sources:

Wikipedia (2006):

Sales of the Cayenne have been strong, with 100,000 sold as of June, 2005, becoming Porsche's best-selling vehicle in North America.

Granted, a couple of sentences later the author acknowlegdes that Cayenne sales have cooled enough for them to skip a year of production.

Forbes.com (2005):

For Porsche, the Cayenne helped keep profits and sales increasing while sports car sales declined in recent years; it is now the company's best-selling vehicle by far.

Autoweb.com (2006):

Porsche is smarter than pundits who predicted that the end of the world was nigh when it introduced the Cayenne SUV a few years ago. For proof, look at the German sports car maker’s sales figures in North America for 2005. Half of the 33,974 vehicles that rolled into American and Canadian driveways were Cayennes. Half. And that’s in a year when Cayenne sales had cooled – the sport-ute previously accounted for more than that.

Autoblog.com (2006):

Sales of the Cayenne amounting to 34,134 units (previous year: 41,884 units) reached the same high level as the 911 even though the Cayenne was already in its fourth model year and Porsche as a company consistently maintains its policy not to grant any discounts on its SUV.

I'm not claiming the numbers you (G-S) report are wrong, but--in contrast--the quotes above are representative of the stuff I've read. I'd be curious to see, then, if Porsche has made money or lost money on this SUV foray. After all, Zuffenhausen is supposed to be super-profitable right now. But would they have been more/less profitable without the Cayenne? Anyone have those types of figures?

[Isabo]

My original post was intended to be tongue in cheek. I didn't mean it to be an attack on the Cayenne even if it is a horrible oversized people mover
I've also driven the Cayenne and there is no question it is technically competent. SO WHAT! With what it costs and with who designed and built it it should be the best damned suv on the market.
The issue I was pushing initially was that no one was visiting the forum and it was full of old spam. Hardly the Pelican's choice of wheels then is it?
For me Porsche means 911 means aircooled. Reactionary certainly and I don't apologise for it. Porsche is simply no longer building the cars I really want - the ones I dreamed about. (I might be convinced by a 997 GT3 or Turbo). For me they have lost their way and are now simply milking their heritage for all it is worth. They may be more profitable than ever and that appeals to the businesswoman in me. however, they are not producing cars that sing to the enthusiast in me. I can appreciate the supremacy of a Cayenne, the effortless performance from a to b of a 997. They are NaPP: (Not A Proper Porsche

[911teo]

Originally posted by Isabo
For me Porsche means 911 means aircooled. Reactionary certainly and I don't apologise for it. Porsche is simply no longer building the cars I really want - the ones I dreamed about. (I might be convinced by a 997 GT3 or Turbo). For me they have lost their way and are now simply milking their heritage for all it is worth. They may be more profitable than ever and that appeals to the businesswoman in me. however, they are not producing cars that sing to the enthusiast in me. I can appreciate the supremacy of a Cayenne, the effortless performance from a to b of a 997. They are NaPP: (Not A Proper Porsche

I totally agree with your statement. I feel exactly the same.

As I said before I have no interest in Porsche's current line up in terms of sports cars.

I will consider the Panamera as an alternative to a Mercedes Benz and a BMW. Porsche to me has become like any other luxury car maker with competent, reliable and powerful cars.

I wouldn't have bought the Cayenne if I was living in Milan (where my parents are). But here it makes for a good people carrier.

[Tervuren]

Originally posted by VaSteve
Whenever I see one pass me, I try and look at the driver. They are usually driven by people that don't fit the demographic of "enthusiasts".

Maybe they are, but I have never seen people that look like them at the track or any other PCA events.

I've gotten the Porsche wave from two Cayennes.

As far as the enthusiast crowd vs soccer moms argument... Well I don't think 50% of the 997s are driven by enthusiasts. And I believe you can make the same argument with Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.

I dissagree/agree, last time several locals got together for a twisty road drive - the only water cooled 911 turned away because it was drizziling! Whereas, despite it the weather, the most represented Marque was Ferrari! Don't underestimate Ferrari owners as not driving them. In my area, they are hugely active. I think we had about 1 in 10 of the areas Ferrari's out in the rain for an informal drive, some drives would be closer to 1 in 3. With how many Porsches there are, to get equal percentages, would be a faily high number.

[911teo]

Originally posted by Noah930

I'm not claiming the numbers you (G-S) report are wrong, but--in contrast--the quotes above are representative of the stuff I've read. I'd be curious to see, then, if Porsche has made money or lost money on this SUV foray. After all, Zuffenhausen is supposed to be super-profitable right now. But would they have been more/less profitable without the Cayenne? Anyone have those types of figures?

But why do we care abt wether Porsche made a penny or not with the Cayenne?

The 87-88 Carreras were not profitable for PAG. They brought the company on the brink of collapse. Not enough buyers. The had to redesign the whole thing and have it share its component with the 986 (Boxster) for the 911 to be profitable...

But nobody is saying the G50 Carrera was a bad car.

So the Cayenne is a capable car. It does not fit with what Porsche was all about in the 70s, 80s, and 90s. But the same can be said for the leaky 996 and 997 that do not withstand the track usage.

I do not see the Cayenne as a Porsche. It's just the best family car out there.