Getting a pilots license.....when to buy?

[HardDrive]

I have always had the urge to get my pilots license. When I was young, my grandfather would take me out flying in his Piper Cub all the time. We would fly all over lower Michigan and into Northern Ohio. Barely could reach the pedals, but he would let me stick and rudder a bit.

I have researched it, so finding schools, costs, etc....I think I have that nailed.

But I was looking at the rental cost. It seems like its going to end up costing $6-10k (depending on who you believe) in rentals fees. It seems like Cessna 150s can be had for less than $30k, and 150s for $50ish. I realize that maitainance costs on aircraft are insane, but at what point do you bite the bullet and buy a plane?

Is starting off in some kind of 'shared' situation a good idea? An aquaintance of mine has a 150 that he owns with some partners.

Any thoughts/warnings would be helpful.

[Joeaksa]

How about some practical experience? I bought an old C-150 with a partner way back in the 1970's. Cost about $4500 total and we split all the costs. We both used it to get our private licenses then flew it another year, when we upgraded to a Cardinal.

Sold it to buy the other airplane and after both of us flew it all this time we ended up making $500 on the plane. It was one of the best investments I have ever made and would strongly suggest that you look into the same thing.

First thing I would do is to look around your area for a plane at an airport near you, then go on the internet. Talk to the owner and mechanic of the plane. It would be nice if its near its annual time so you could look at the plane with the covers pulled as well it would have a fresh inspection during the purchase.

Just like a 911, the more past history it has, the better. Go to the FAA and get a copy of the history of the plane on CD, and research it. It costs $6 or so and takes a week. If you need help, email me. I help even liberals with airplanes!

If you cannot find something local, then look on the internet but be VERY careful. Check www.barnstormers.com for airplanes.

If you are interested, I have a very old friend who owns a C-152 that will be for sale shortly. I flew this airplane back in the 1980's when it was used for a flight school plane, then sold to a private party. Its very low time as its been sitting for several years when the owner slowed down on flying. Located in Prescott Arizona, it needs an annual and new radio but otherwise is in good condition. Do not know anymore of the details of the plane but email or PM me if interested.

I have flown most of the light planes and prefer the Cessna to the Pipers. The high wing hurts on overhead visibility but is excellent looking down. The low wing planes are exactly opposite. My issue is that the Piper flies like a truck, with heavy controls, while the Cessna is more like our 911's with light and very responsive controls. Try both and see which one you like.

Joe

[Dantilla]

I rented 150/152s to get my license. Because of the flying experience I had due to flying a bunch as a kid with my dad, I spent less than most.

I recently entered my second partnership in an airplane, and offer the following rambling thoughts:
- Know your partner. We've never argued about who gets the plane when, or debated maintenance issues. We both expect the plane to be maintained to pretty much perfect standards.
-Know how your parner flies. I totally trust my investment in the hands of my partner. I know how careful he is, and how well he treats the equipment. Careful engine management. We both keep the airplane neat and tidy. Bug guts are cleaned off quickly. No oil streaking back along the belly. Staying current.
-My wife likes the idea of paying for half of a really nice airplane as opposed to what I would feel comfortable with on my own.
-You may want to discuss an exit strategy up front. If one partner is a gadget freak, and keeps insisting on spending a bunch on the latest avionics, while the other partner is happy flying with basic instruments, you may want to part ways, and each find a new partner with similar goals.

My first partnership was a great success. After several years my partner had two kids in college, and had little time to fly, so we sold the airplane, at a profit. Right before the engine was at TBO.

My new partnership is also going extremely well.

Two people is nice. Several times we have been asked if we would like to have a third member. After a short discussion, the answer is no. With two, both get plenty of time to fly, and there are no scheduling issues. We also want to insure that the airplane is flown and treated the way we expect. And the difference in paying for half of an annual vs. a third is not a big enough difference to be a serious factor.

As long as the partners think somewhat alike, have easygoing personalities, and have adequate checkbooks, it's truely the best way to get into airplane ownership.

[HardDrive]

Originally posted by Dantilla

and have adequate checkbooks

Care to expand on that at all?

If I buy a well maintained Cessna 150, will I be looking at more than $12000 a year when you total maintenance/insurance/hanger....etc.....?

[Joeaksa]

It all depends on where you live and the associated costs in that area. Start looking around and stopping by smaller airports. Check on the availability of hangars and pricing.

Also you might talk to a local flight school. Ask them about your buying a plane, their taking care of it and when you are not flying it they could use it for instruction. Cuts your cost down a lot and they take care of everything.

Personally I would think that $12k is more than enough. I pay $170 a month for a hangar where I live, and its 2 miles from the house.

My annual inspection will cost under $300 each year (am a aircraft mechanic, but not inspector so have to pay someone to sign it off) so that helps a bit but you as an owner/operator can do a fair amount of the day to day maintenance like tires, spark plugs and lights. An airplane like the Bonanza above will cost thousands for an annual, but then its a complex retractable gear bird, and you pay for the extra speed and good looks.

Insurance costs me $800 but I am fairly high time, both total and time in type and no instruction is done in my bird. Your insurance might be double my cost.

[Joeaksa]

Also, here is the link to the FAA website. Get a copy of the records of any airplane you are looking at buying. Its kinda like Carfax but a lot more detailed.

Look for any damage, replacement of major parts like a landing gear, wingtip (or more) and so on. That would show that a plane has been in an accident and you either want to avoid it or make damm sure that its been fixed correctly.

Joe

http://162.58.35.241/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp

[Brother]

I wouldn't buy until you find out that you have a pure love of flying. Cessnas are ridiculously slow so their utility is limited. If you fly for a while and decide you just love "flying", then take the plunge. Otherwise, hold off and just rent.

Being a military aviator, I can't think of anything more boring than civilian aviation. Of course, I don't have the pure love of flying. I like flying "with a purpose". Doing something while your flying is much better for me but I don't think I realized this until I was well passed my private liscence.

Just my opinion, take that for what its worth. Of course, as long as you maintain it, the airplane's value won't drop. In that way, it is kind of like your porsche.

[slodave]

I do not have a pilots license, but my dad does and this is what he did... He got his PL back in '68(?) and flew rental planes for a long time. Late late 70's he stopped flying. Maybe it had to do with my age at the time, but only he knows. Mid 80's he got back into it and rented again. Early 90's he knew he was going to fly privately for a long time and decided to buy a plane. He settled on a 1983 Beech Bonanza B36TC. It is not an easy plane to fly, especially if you are just starting out, but a nice plane later on.

I know that if I went for my PL, I would not buy up front. I am young and even though I like flying, I'd hate to have to sell my plane 6 months after I bought it, because I lost interest or some other reason.

Dave

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Brother
I wouldn't buy until you find out that you have a pure love of flying. Cessnas are ridiculously slow so their utility is limited. If you fly for a while and decide you just love "flying", then take the plunge. Otherwise, hold off and just rent.

Just my opinion, take that for what its worth. Of course, as long as you maintain it, the airplane's value won't drop. In that way, it is kind of like your porsche.

Pipers are no faster nor are most of the other airplanes normally used for training. It all comes down to what you like the feel of.

Try both or many different types, but more people have learned on Cessna C-150/152 airplanes than almost all other types combined.

Personally I would recommend that someone learn on a taildragger, but that is a bit hard core. If you can land an old taildragger, you can land anything.

[on2wheels52]

"Never buy anything that floats, flies, or f*cks"

I've forgotten where I heard those words of wisdom but have generally obeyed them.
Jim

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Another thing to consider (if you have the money) is that you can deduct the depreciation of an asset used for a business. A lawyer friend of mine handled acquisition of a Lear 35 for one of his clients recently - after the depreciation adjustments their annual costs are the crew salaries, mechanical upkeep and operating (fuel, tiedown, etc.) costs. That's it.

But perhaps more applicable to your situation - the above advice sounds very good. Consider putting your plane on leaseback with a local flight school. I know a few guys that do this and although they don't make a lot of money off it, it usually is enough to cover the cost of the plane, the required inspections and give them an occasional couple hours of free flight time. The downside is you have students "learning" (translation: beating on) your airplane.

[Tim Hancock]

Hangar rent varies depending on locale around here it averages $75/mth. A routine annual inspection on a 150 will cost $500-$1000.
Insurance will cost you around $1200-$1500.

Airplanes kind of suck from a financial perspective due to the high cost of engine overhauls. Most small aircraft have engines that have a 2000 hour TBO (To Be Overhauled time), which can kind of be thought of as a best case scenario for how long the engine will be considered still usable before requiring a $12000 to $20000 overhaul. Unlike cars that you can take some shortcuts with and maybe do the work yourself, certified aircraft must have the job done by an overhaul facility or an AP mechanic.

When shopping for an airplane, you will see the TT (total time on the airframe) and the SMOH (Since Major OverHaul) time listed. If you find a beautiful airplane that states the SMOH time as 1800 and the price is $25000, you need to realize that after you fly it for a couple of years the engine will require a $15000 overhaul. Now you will have $40,000 in aplane that will only be worth maybe $30,000 or so. If you instead try to sell it with a used up engine, most will shy away from it as they know they will need to spend $15,000 soon after they purchase it.

These overhaul times are not neccesarily written in stone, but in reality, most engines do not make it to TBO without some cylinder work along the way. It becomes a tough decision to spend $6000 on new cylinders when the engine only has a couple hundred hours before TBO.

As a new pilot, you will probably rack up 100 hrs per year for the first year or so then eventually you will taper down to maybe 30-50 hrs per year.

I enjoy owning my own planes as I did even before I got my AP/IA mechanic ratings, but like restoring old cars, it seldom makes financial sense. If you can afford to treat this as a fun little hobby and don't mind parting with some money, then it is worth it.

As a cost saving measure, whether you buy or rent, you will be money ahead if you hit the lessons hard and get your private in few months as opposed to a few years. You will complete it in far fewer hours if you fly a few times a week until completion. Guys who drag it out end up paying for 60+ hours, while guys who do it quickly can get it done in as few as 45 or so hours (I took 43 or 44hrs over about 2 1/2 months in '93). You progress rapidly if you train often.

I will step off my soapbox now. Good luck!