Who Was The Best Fighter Pilot?

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by bigchillcar
anyone remember randy 'duke' cunningham? think he's a rep. in california..and may have also taken a bribe or something lately for which he got into trouble? he flew the phantom in vietnam.
ryan

Randy was a friend of mine. I now write to him in prison. Sad to see how far he fell but then we are all human... Still, he was very good with an F-4.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Yeager flew 64 combat missions. Hartmann flew 1425. Did Yeager have a day job or something?

German pilots flew until they were shot down and hospitalized, captured or the war ended. Allied pilots flew 25 missions then most of them went home. Some of them volunteered for a second tour but not many.

It was indeed a "day job" for the Allies, while the German pilots landed, refueled and rearmed and got back up in the air as many as 5 times a day. The Allied pilots on the other hand had missions that lasted as long as 10-12 hours, most at high altitude, with poor heat and flying on oxygen. Which one was more difficult? Who knows but neither one was pleasant.

Just spent sometime with Heniz Orlowski in Berlin last month, even took him up for a flight in our aircraft. He was a FW-190 pilot who was shot down over Norway while trying to protect the German pocket battleship Tirpitz. He is now in Phoenix (and dammit I am in London) visiting with another friend of ours. There is a company in the US restoring the FW-190 that he bailed out of way back in 1945 and he is assisting.

http://www.white1foundation.org/history_orlowski.htm

There are a few of these old WW2 pilots around but not many. We cannot imagine what life was like for them during the war. Not trying to feel sorry for them as Germany started the war, but theirs was a sad lot compared to what our soldiers had to work with.

[typ550]

I always admired Adolf Galland. Not because he had the highest number of kills, but because he seemed to have a sense of chivalry about him and also the guts to stand-up to Goering and Hitler. I had a chance to meet him and a few other Luftwaffe aces (Rall - 275 Kills, Steinhoff, Krupinski) when they passed through Atlanta on a tour back in the '80s. I have a signed picture of his 262 from the JV-44 days hanging in my office.

My dad, a WWII vet, remembers seeing 262s that had been converted to "blitz bombers" blowing the hell out of bridges when he was trying to cross the Roer River in early '45.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
German pilots flew until they were shot down and hospitalized, captured or the war ended. Allied pilots flew 25 missions then most of them went home. Some of them volunteered for a second tour but not many.

It was indeed a "day job" for the Allies, while the German pilots landed, refueled and rearmed and got back up in the air as many as 5 times a day. The Allied pilots on the other hand had missions that lasted as long as 10-12 hours, most at high altitude, with poor heat and flying on oxygen. Which one was more difficult? Who knows but neither one was pleasant.

Just spent sometime with Heniz Orlowski in Berlin last month, even took him up for a flight in our aircraft. He was a FW-190 pilot who was shot down over Norway while trying to protect the German pocket battleship Tirpitz. He is now in Phoenix (and dammit I am in London) visiting with another friend of ours. There is a company in the US restoring the FW-190 that he bailed out of way back in 1945 and he is assisting.

http://www.white1foundation.org/history_orlowski.htm

There are a few of these old WW2 pilots around but not many. We cannot imagine what life was like for them during the war. Not trying to feel sorry for them as Germany started the war, but theirs was a sad lot compared to what our soldiers had to work with.

My father's missions were frequently 10-12 hours duration, when he had a particular "deep penetration" target of interest to recon they were longer. He had the good fortune to have completed the full Navigator course* prior to becoming a pilot, which enabled him to plot "incress to target" routes that took him over less defended real estate so that he could approach the target of interest from a unexpected direction, most often he photographed his target on the way out of hostile country. That didn't work all of the time, of course, the mission on which he earned the Distinguished Flying Cross was such; anti-aircraft fire had knocked out one engine on his F-5 (recon P-38) on the way over the target on the first pass, but he made a second run on the remaining engine, and returned to base with the "goods". He racked up 65 combat missions altogether.


*actually, my dad earned all three "wings", first through Navigator school (as an aviation cadet), then to Bombardier school, and last through pilot training. There was a write up about "the triple threat aviator" in one of the military newspapers at the time, I'll try to scan it in sometime.

[MFAFF]

Joe,

If Tirpitz was a 'pocket' battleship I'm keen to know what you imagine a 'real' battleship to be.....

I'm surprised Col John Boyd hasn't had at least a mention....no he didn't have teh kills, but he was certainly more influential than any other.

He had the desire and intellect to gather the 'art' of the Fighter pilot into a form that could be taught, that could be passed onto rookies and more importantly to the designers of fighters so they could understand what to provide....to allow the pilots to win consistently

Without him no teen series fighters...no Fulcrums, no Flankers..no Raptors...

When you read his 'briefings' you understand why the YF-16 and YF-17 were so good, and even the heavy handed develop process did not totally kill the F-16 (although it murdered the YF-17)...and that the F-15 has so much installed power.. even if the thing has a huge nose....

[Tanick]

Douglas Bader?

A few quotes from his Wikipedia entry:

"He made so many attempts at escape that the Germans threatened to take away his legs."

"It was thought that Bader's success as a fighter pilot was partly due to having no legs; pilots pulling high 'G' in combat turns often 'blacked out' as the flow of blood from the brain drained to other parts of the body- usually the legs. As Bader had no legs he could remain conscious that much longer and thus had an advantage over more able-bodied opponents."

[Sarc]

Originally posted by Joeaksa
Randy was a friend of mine. I now write to him in prison. Sad to see how far he fell but then we are all human... Still, he was very good with an F-4.

Boy I bet you must know some good stories that the History Channel programs didn't cover. It's too bad what happened to him in private life.

One name I haven't heard mentioned is Maj. Thomas McGuire, the USAAF's #2 all time aerial victor.

[artplumber]

Originally posted by Tanick
Douglas Bader?

Absolutely.

He fought without his legs (lost them in a crash while he was doing aerobatics).

[bigchillcar]

interesting. good writeup about randy cunningham, joe. i'm sure he appreciates the letters.
ryan

[tabs]

Originally posted by m21sniper
Germany: Boelke and Immelman
US: Richard Bong and Tom MacGuire
UK: Ed Mannock
France(spit): Rene Fonck
Canada: Billy Bishop


Hartman racked up all his kills against bi-planes and obsolete russian junk piloted by inexperienced pilots, and his kill total is thought to be exxagerated by 100% or more.

Thats why Hartman knocked down 5 or was it 7 American flown P-51s in one mission late in the war, while flying a by then obsolete ME 109.

U forgot Werner Voss (48 kills) and his lil Tri-plane holding off a flight from RFC Squadorn 56 and 2 from 60 Squadron for 10 minutes on 9/23/17. The RFC 56 Squadron flight contained the following British pilots McCudden, Rhys-Davids, Hoidge, Hammersely, Muspratt, Cronyn, Childlaw-Roberts, and Bowman.(185 kills among them) During that time Voss was able to put bullets into every British fighter inflicting serious damage to most. Voss was a phenon with the Triplane literally being able to change direction without banking, by "slip turning." In the end he was shot down and killed.

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/voss/56.html

This had to be the EPIC Dogfight of all time..

Rene Fonck was very special in that he started his flying career in 1914 and survived the war. He claimed his unofficial score was 137. Fonck rarely if ever got any enemy bullets put into his airplane.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by tabs
Thats why Hartmann knocked down 5 or was it 7 American flown P-51s in one mission late in the war, while flying a by then obsolete ME 109.

And 80 Bell Aircobra's. In actual fact, Hartmann shot down whatever was sent his way, and his opinion of the P-51 was similar to my father's opinion of it; that it was way overrated as a fighter.

U forgot Werner Voss (48 kills) and his lil Tri-plane holding off a flight from RFC Squadorn 56 and 2 from 60 Squadron for 10 minutes on 9/23/17. The RFC 56 Squadron flight contained the following British pilots McCudden, Rhys-Davids, Hoidge, Hammersely, Muspratt, Cronyn, Childlaw-Roberts, and Bowman.(185 kills among them) During that time Voss was able to put bullets into every British fighter inflicting serious damage to most. Voss was a phenon with the Triplane literally being able to change direction without banking, by "slip turning." In the end he was shot down and killed.

http://blindkat.hegewisch.net/voss/56.html

This had to be the EPIC Dogfight of all time..

Rene Fonck was very special in that he started his flying career in 1914 and survived the war. He claimed his unofficial score was 137. Fonck rarely if ever got any enemy bullets put into his airplane.

You may be correct, but Erich Hartmann's view of dogfighting was that it was and remained a waste of time. He avoided them as much as possible.

[fastpat]

Another fighter pilot deserves mention, for he was equal to, and some say better than, Randy Cunningham for several reasons.

That pilot was Colonel Robin Olds, USAF. And, yes, that's an illegally long and full mustache for the era, a trademark of Olds.

Colonel Robin Olds, CO of the 8th TFW, mastermind behind Operation “Bolo”

He was also an outstanding fighter pilot: on the first day of the operation (January 2 1967) he personally shot down one MiG-21 with two AIM-9s while flying an F-4C Phantom. During Vietnam he was credited with 4 kills, only one kill short of becoming a “Double Ace.” He already was a WWII Ace with 12 victories.

http://www.acepilots.com/vietnam/olds_bolo.html

[Nostril Cheese]

Joe,

were you a military pilot? What did you fly? Combat experience?

[bigchillcar]

nostril cheese...man i can't get that name outa my head..and i just gotta! makes me guilty every time i go to pick my nose now!
ryan

[Seahawk]

Who was the best fighter pilot?

The one who just shot you down

[bigchillcar]

lol...seahawk. hard to argue with that thinking in the moment!
ryan