I think they are pretty much there already. I don't know if this is well know, but when a certain Japanese manufacturer entered the truck series their body -supposedly a Tundra - was actually based on the existing Ford truck but with Tundra 'styling cues'.

Right now, they have three kinds of cars in NASCAR:

Short track cars, long track cars, and road course cars. (In other words, Jeff Gordon drives a different car at Bristol, Michigan, and Sears Point respectively.)

There are playing with specifying a single car for all three types of tracks.

NASCAR specifies the chassis, the suspension, the brakes, the transmission, the carburetor, the wheels and tires, the shape of the car from the base of the windshield to the base of the rear window, among other details. It is a spec series today, with the only allowable variables being the front end sheet metal, quarterpanels and trunk, and the brand-specific motor. Even those are indistinguishable from one another. Two valve wedge heads, pushrods, V8's. They have a list of aproved chassis builders, just like CART.

The new F1 rules set to take affect shortly get a great deal closer to this. The FIA will provide transmissions, engine management systems, and brakes. This will be in addition to the spec wheel/tire for next year. They have specified the number of cylinders for years; long gone are the V-12's, V-8's, turbo charged 4's all running together. They simply cannot afford to hve the idylic "run what ya brung" attitude anymore; just a couple of teams have a lot more to bring. They had to reign it in a bit.

Even Top Fuel, the last bastion of wide-open racing, has gotten more and more regulated in recent years. 500 inch maximum displacement, 80% nitro maximum, spec rear end ratio, maximum wheelbase, minimum weight. And the still hit 330-something in the traps. Something had to be done for safety's sake, even here. The days of wide-open, no holds barred racing at any level are gone. Technology has outstripped both the tracks and human ability.

I'll be the first to admit, my attention span is barely long enough to get through the whole race, let along keep up with the off-track drama during the week. :) That and it's on at odd times (so I can't ever remember to get up and watch. I guess F1 is not for the casual viewer. Doesn't Ferrari win like 90% of the races?


Regarding people saying NASCAR is a spec series...so what? Spec is fun, you see who can really drive once you take out the variable of who can spend the most money. Space wheelbarrows would be more fun to watch than a guaranteed blowout.

I will agree with you all though, manipulating it just for the "show" of it is wrong. If a ball game sucks, well, it just sucked. Can't manipulate that. It is a fascinating business, but like every business, it has it's haters.

The only favorable thought I have about Nascar is thinking about Richard Petty, Cale Yarborough, Benny Parsons, etc. driving 4000lb stock "locomotives" around Daytona on skinny, crap tires at 210mph while chain smoking cigarettes. Yes, they had functioning cigarette lighters in the cars. :)

Ferarri has tumbled the last 2 years making the season fascinating.

The new tire rule in 2005 killed Ferarri as Bridgestone could not get the tires right giving Renault the chance to dominate, McLaren shoudl have dominated but the damn cars would break all the time.
When the cars did not break Kimi's drives were epic.

Then this past year they changed the tire rule again giving Ferrari a chance to come back, they fumbled around for the 1st half of the season and Renault picked right back up dominating.

Meanwhile McLaren developed its car around the old tire rule not anticipating the new rule and the cars were worthless this past year.

1/2 way through the year Ferrari got its act together then Schumacher started playing head games with Alonso and the drama was better than any NASCAR race or an entire season. Alonso came unglued blaming his team for failure and eveything else on the face of the earth while MS played games with him on and off the track.

Last years season was probably the best I have seen in the 5 years I have been following closely.

Next year? Eveyone changed teams, one tire supplier, lots of young guns ready to prove they can win. Yeah going to be a great season. Plus no MS to dominate the place so everything is up for grabs.

BTW - in winter testing Massa Ferraris "second driver" is dominating eveyone. It does not mean anything but I find it interesting Kimi is not testing. One of the faults of Kimi is his lackluster approach to the sport he is not as dedicated as most but has tons of raw talent. If he would apply himself he would be the next MS.

Alonso went to McLaren because he saw how fast they could be in 2005 then in 2006 they were mid pack runners and it looks like he made a mistake? Next season will tell.

Flavio @ Renault has decided to run all young guns and new talent next year, Renault has a really fast car so it will be interesting to see if the new guys can take Renault to another championship.

Ferrari has had a lot of Michaels guys leave with him so there is speculation that they will not be a good team next year. Leaving Kimi right where he was with McLaren.

I cannot understand how anyone can not be glued to this.

See my point? It pays off for the devoted follower. Not the casual viewer. I don't have the patience to follow all that and we certainly don't get near the NASCAR/SPEEDTV coverage to keep up with it all.

I remember trying to watch that race when the tire issue came up. Left me so confused I didn't know which end was up :D

I go here its the best coverage IMHO.

http://www.planetf1.com/

I don't know about drag racing, but in F1 the changes have mostly been done to curb costs, as you said earlier. Unfortunately that's one of the ways development works, if you have a huge amount of money and resources you are able to try more things than anyone else. Ultimately that would kill off the small teams, so something had to be done to level the playing field to the best of their abilities. There is a bit of a difference between doing this and selectively allowing manufacturers or teams 'tweaks' as NASCAR do. In that instance it isn't a cost issue, it's manipulation.
I think there will be a point with any genuinely open development series when dollars come into play.

One of the most impressive 'open development' series recently was the old DTM (German Touring Car) series. They had Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, and Opel with very high tech touring cars (sedans). They had cool stuff like active movable weight distribution, traction control, ABS, four wheel drive, and all kinds of high-tech stuff. Those cars were super cool, but escallating cost killed it and now they run cars that are a little more restrained.

It hasn't been so much cost in Top Fuel as it has been safety. Most tracks simply do not have enough shut-down distance to handle the speeds anymore. Many drivers have suffered detached retinas, just like boxers that get their heads snapped very hard. It happens when the 'chutes pop open; they estimate the decel peaks at 12-15 g's.

Pro Stock is actually the most expensive class in drag racing. Top Fuel is very unsophisticated in comparison. While you will see the nitro cars tearing down and rebuilding engines after every run, they actually get about eight to a dozen runs on most wear items. They just like to magnaflux, penatrant inspect, or x-ray everything after each run. The good stuff gets re-used. Pro Stock does not tear down and rebuild at the track, because they don't suffer the catastrophic failures of the fuel cars, but the service life on wear items is about the same. Add to that a far more sophisticated chassis, suspension, and drivetrain, and the cost of a car is several times that a Top Fuel car. And they develop at a much faster pace; not many competitive teams will run a car more than a season. Top Fuel cars go several seasons; they just don't change much outside of the motors.

As spectacular as Top Fuel is to watch, it really is one of the "more affordable" top level racing series. And it's popular enough to attract sponsors in the way NASCAR does.

It's too bad there really can't be a DTM, or early Can-Am, original F-1, or even NASCAR style series anymore. Costs and safety just won't allow it. It's interesting to note that NASCAR runs restricted, single carb 360-some-odd cubic inch motors on the super speedways, and they still lap faster than the good ol' days of twin-carbed, unrestricted 426's, 427's, 428's, and 429's. Imagine if the were still racing under those rules. Side-by-side at 250, 260, 270??!! Could you imagine the carnage? Remember, energy increases with the square of velocity. All that paint tradin' would get a whole lot more serious...

LOVE IT!

Brakes are not specified except that rotors must be steel (iron) and no more than 2 pads per caliper. Min. thickness of rotors for Busch and Truck. Wide open other than that. Brake systems are very sofisticated and modern - the best available as the series is the hardest on brakes on the planet including F1. The brake business in NASCAR is very competitive. Its where all the latest pad compounds come from as well as rotor and caliper designs.

Transmissions are not specked other than 4 speeds. There are some 3rd gear rules and a ring and pinion rule for some divisions to limit changes at the track. You would be amazed at the variations and sophistication within the transmissions (there are over 7 manufactures approved and they are custom built dog ring boxes with the same materials as F1 etc.)

The engines have as much or more engineering as any F1 engine – amazing but true. Key F1 engineers have crossed over to NASCAR.


At the end of the day, is it fun to watch on TV or at the track? Not for me.

What is interesting and fascinating is the support industry and the work going on behind the scenes – from fabrication, engineering, design, testing etc. plus all the business that support it. There are many small niche businesses that support everything from lug nuts to aero design. The industry is very large relative to racing. Over 600,000 lug nuts per season - two screw machines at full production. Thousands of wheels and lug studs as an example. You have to look deep to see a lot of it. There are over 24 lug stud lengths. Teams change lug studs to shorten then by 2 threads.


QUOTE][i]Even Top Fuel, the last bastion of wide-open racing[/B][/QUOTE]

Top Fuel - yes - But I think the real last bastion of wide open racing at the pro level is Off Road Trophy Trucks - Baha 1000 etc. Those things are unreal.

One of the ultimates has to be D Sports Racing but now the production cars are, I believe, creeping into that class.


"It's too bad there really can't be a DTM, or early Can-Am, original F-1, or even NASCAR style series anymore."

I could not agree more!

The Busch series is the best of NASCAR if you want to go to the track and garage area - much less stress, more open and friendly and still top people and talent. Less crowds and traffic too.

Most racing series are governed by a set of ambiguous and arbitrary rules - its how the talent on the teams work the system that is interesting and there is plenty of talent on the NASCAR teams today.

Ashley Page

Ashley,

It must be frustrating to know all that technology is used in NASCAR and its all reduced to a yellow flag thrown to regroup the cars before the end of the race.


I would have never guessed more engineering goes into a NASCAR motor over a F-1 engine. I really have a hard time believing that especially when you consider the RPM's each engine runs at and the fact that a F1 engine must last 2 races and qualifying. Does NASCAR have engine rules like that as well? I really do not know.

NASCAR could save the teams a lot of money if they went to an IROC spec and randomly picked cars for the drivers. That should give them the equality they desire.
Jim

Frustrating to the teams I am sure.


Similar in that regard to F1 except 1 race. PRM is related, again, to the engine rules. It was said recently by, I forget the name but a top F1 engine designer, A NASCAR engine guy could "build" the F1 engine but the F1 engine guy would struggle with the NASCAR engine - with the objective of getting the competitive engine performance from each. I can point you to the guy who said it f interested.

Great info, Ashley. You're more current on the NASCAR stuff than I am. I think I'm confusing "spec" with "very restricted"; i.e. four speeds only, steel rotors only, etc. Not that the number of gears matters anywhere but a road course and maybe Pocono (for some teams). Fourth is what they race in all the way around.

Yes, NASCAR motors are unbelievable when you consider the restrictions on them. Pushrod V-8's at 9,000+ rpm's, anyone? For 500 miles??!! That's "endurance racing" in anyone else's book. I remember when (and this is going to date me) Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins started the smallblock/short wheelbase revolution in Pro Stock drag racing in the early '70's with his mouse-motored Vegas. 8,000-some-odd rpm was considered "reving it to the moon", and he only hoped to go a quarter mile that way. My how times change. Cup car motors, on a single carb, rev higher and make half again the power his drag motors made on twin Holly's sitting on top of a tunnel ram. And they last 500 miles to boot.

The technology and innovation is certainly there in NASCAR. Too bad NASCAR sees fit to "keep it even". Almost weekly adjustments to spoiler heights, air dam ground clearances, on a make-by-make basis just to keep them all running together. And the silly environment of taking any new, innovative parts to NASCAR for approval before they can be run on the car. If it's too good, too far ahead of the pack, you don't get to run it.

I remember Richard Petty (before he retired) pining for the days when he could "get out there and race some one". In his opinion, those days were long gone. Everyone just drives around together and, like a game of musical chairs, whoever just happens to be in front when the music stops "wins". It is, to some degree, totally random. That's too bad.

+++++ THAT is TOO f&%kin funny!!



:D

Yes, in my opinion, all true.

Joe - come on! I remember watching Chief Jay Strongbow and Killer Kowalski, as a 6 year old and thinking “they ain’t really hitting each other, that’s fake. Anybody who ever thought any portion of that was real (save the mistakes) is/was an idiot.

Anytime you get millions of bucks into something, "creative displacement of reality" is going to take place. Pro Football, the Final Four and the Rose Bowl, the World Series, heck even the World Cup isn't completely run the way a true sport should be done - I'm not even certain you can find it in HS Football playoffs anymore.

Let us not loose sight of the obvious - it is entertainment nothing else. A show. A spectacle.