Charlie Reese on Jefferson Davis

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
Nice work Eric, I was kind of thinking the same thing.

Wishing a thug well I see, good work Tim.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by fastpat
Wishing a thug well I see, good work Tim.

The civil war was a long time ago Pat, the south lost......get over it.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by Tim Hancock
The civil war was a long time ago Pat, the south lost......get over it.

Past is Prologue, Tim.

[MRM]

Originally posted by fastpat
He'd be a fabulous role model for almost anyone. West Point graduate, statesman, hero.

Yeah, once you get over the thing about him using his obvious talents to fight to preserve slavery. Were the Confederates fighting for a government of the people that included the slaves? Oh, I forgot, slaves were only 4/5th human. Other than that, there's the deal about him being on the losing side. And in losing, leading his people into one of the great humiliations of the world. Which even he knew would happen when he took on the job, because he correctly predicted the industrialized North could overwhelm the south because the south would run out of amunition before the North would run out of men. Too bad Reconstruction didn't last another few decades. Then the south would have been ready to re-enter the union before 1964.

But other than that, you're right, he's a perfect hero for anyone. I'm sure fellow general Colin Powel has a picture of him on his wall.

As far as West Pointers go, I prefer Edgar Alan Poe. He didn't graduate, but he didn't destroy half the country in a stupid, inevitably futile war, either.

[rcecale]

Hey, Paste!



Randy

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
Wishing a thug well I see, good work Tim.

fo shizzle...thug life!

[fastpat]

Originally posted by MRM
Yeah, once you get over the thing about him using his obvious talents to fight to preserve slavery.

The Union did not invade the Confederacy in a dispute about slavery. In fact, the Union congress approved a Constitutional Amendment making slavery permanent, and removed from future amendment, AFTER the southern states lawfully seceded. When you depend on what you learned in high school about the War Against Southern Independence, you'll look like what you apparently are, an uneducated lout.

Were the Confederates fighting for a government of the people that included the slaves?

Not a relevant question. However, free blacks were being counted among those being freed from the merchantilists of the Northeast, the real power behind the monster, Lincoln.

Oh, I forgot, slaves were only 4/5th human.

That statement is really based on ignorance. You'd best learn who wanted the slaves counted that way, hint: It wasn't anyone in the south.

Other than that, there's the deal about him being on the losing side.

Everyone in America lost when the Confederacy was attacked, invaded, and ultimately treated as an occupied, conquered country. Apparently you don't know, or more likely don't understand that fact.

And in losing, leading his people into one of the great humiliations of the world.

You have no idea what you're talking about, which is to be expected I suppose.

Which even he knew would happen when he took on the job, because he correctly predicted the industrialized North could overwhelm the south because the south would run out of amunition before the North would run out of men.

Right, that's why the Union army was conscripting men "right off the boat", some of whom didn't know how to speak english at all, to satisfy the merchantilist Lincoln men.

Too bad Reconstruction didn't last another few decades. Then the south would have been ready to re-enter the union before 1964.

The reign of terror commonly known as Reconstruction ended when it did because the southern states had been largely reclaimed by the people who lived there, i.e. self government was restored to the rightful people; and the thugs and thieves from the north were mostly thrown out, or buried as necessary. Perhaps the Union should have attempted a longer occupation, that would have meant a growing guerrilla war and eventually a second, successful secession. Too bad we'll never know. The fact remains, we southrons threw the yankees back to where they came from, and that was that. Unfortunately, now the yankee filth is coming back, more's the pity.

But other than that, you're right, he's a perfect hero for anyone. I'm sure fellow general Colin Powel has a picture of him on his wall.

He couldn't do better.

As far as West Pointers go, I prefer Edgar Alan Poe. He didn't graduate, but he didn't destroy half the country in a stupid, inevitably futile war, either.

Davis didn't start the war, he sought peace with the Union. Lincoln started and pursued what remains America's most costly war to date. It was his, and his alone, bloodthirstiness that was completely responsible for the invasion of the Confederate States of America, a sovereign nation wanting no war at all.

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat


[b]
That statement is really based on ignorance. You'd best learn who wanted the slaves counted that way, hint: It wasn't anyone in the south.

[b]
Everyone in America lost when the Confederacy was attacked, invaded, and ultimately treated as an occupied, conquered country. Apparently you don't know, or more likely don't understand that fact.

[[b]
Right, that's why the Union army was conscripting men "right off the boat", some of whom didn't know how to speak english at all, to satisfy the merchantilist Lincoln men.



Davis didn't start the war, he sought peace with the Union. Lincoln started and pursued what remains America's most costly war to date. It was his, and his alone, bloodthirstiness that was completely responsible for the invasion of the Confederate States of America, a sovereign nation wanting no war at all.

A few things paste in glossing over to hide the bruised pride of a southern sec. trying to re-live the 1860s

the CSA enforced a conscription act
The CSA was never recognized as a sovereign nation by any government
and VP of the CSA, Stephens declared(paraphrasing here) that the cornerstone of the new government(CSA) is the great truth that negros are inferior to the white man and are bound to a life of slavery.

[Cdnone1]

Originally posted by fastpat
Past is Prologue, Tim.

So there is going to be another civil war and the South is going to lose again?!
Steve

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by Cdnone1
So there is going to be another civil war and the South is going to lose again?!
Steve

ROFL

[MRM]

You're sounding a little defensive, Pat. Is it getting hard to justify being on the losing side, the side that picked a fight they knew they were going to lose, and the side that was fighting to preserve slavery. Sure, the Civil War wasn't about slavery, if you say so, but the south was trying to perpetuate slavery. The North put an end to it. The North dropped the ball when it let Reconstruction end without fully integrating the south and requiring full rights for all human beings.

Come to think about it, that's another reason I dislike Franklin Roosevelt. He has the biggest majority of his party in both houses of congress when he was elected and he didn't send Federal troops to re-occupy the south, even though he had the political power to do so. He left it to that flaming liberal Ike to send in the 101st Airborne.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by eric 951A few things paste in glossing over to hide the bruised pride of a southern sec. trying to re-live the 1860s

Right, that's why there's more scholarly research on the War Against Southern Independence than any other subject in America, all these professors, professors of History in particular, are reliving the past.

That's a position not just born of ignorance, it applauds ignorance and wishes for it to expand.

I'm not going to do that.

the CSA enforced a conscription act

That's true, but it wasn't very sucessful, being resisted by many. Of course, I've never held the Confederate government to be perfect, just preferable over forced government from Washington, D.C. As someone living outside the Confederacy, it's none of your business what we do here.

The CSA was never recognized as a sovereign nation by any government

Ah, the appeal to authority, this time to authority outside even the Union, as if it were required that any other nation recognize the Confederate States besides those living in it. This never washes well, I'd not use it again since it's a refuge for those with no real point to make.

and VP of the CSA, Stephens declared(paraphrasing here) that the cornerstone of the new government(CSA) is the great truth that negros are inferior to the white man and are bound to a life of slavery.

Yes, that's the other issue always brought up by those with no real truth on their side. Here's the fact, in the Confederacy the vice-president had even less power than that position in the Union. Second, Stephens may or may not have said that while in his vice-presidential capacity, I don't know nor do I care. It is a fact that his position affected nothing in or out of government, nor did it agree with even a slim majority of those in the Confederate government. In short it never had the slightest value (except to foks like you) nor did it reflect any official position.

So, no point made there. Let's see how MRM fares.

Originally posted by MRM
You're sounding a little defensive, Pat. Is it getting hard to justify being on the losing side,

I never have to justify being on the right side of any argument. Just as King Leonidas was on the right side at Thermopylae, the Confederacy was on the right side of freedom in defending itself from invasion by those wanting to force a government upon them.

the side that picked a fight they knew they were going to lose,

First of all, there was never certainty the Union was going to prevail, even after Gettysburg. Your knowledge of the period is thin.

and the side that was fighting to preserve slavery.

The fight was solely due to being illegally invaded by the Union.

Sure, the Civil War wasn't about slavery, if you say so, but the south was trying to perpetuate slavery.

How were they going to do that when it was the Union who attempted and verbalized making slavery permanent. Furhter, you apear to have forgotten how many Union states were slave states, and how many had been slave states as recently as 10 years prior to the secession of the southern states.

The invasion by the Union caused the war, the invasion of the Confederate States of America by the Union was to stage a bloody coup d'etat against the Union Constitution which was ultimately successful. Huge violations of the Constitution occured in the northern states, arrests of tens of thousands to be held without charges or bail, destruciton of hundreds of newspapers, intimidation of hundreds more by acts of violence, military occupation of northern cities for political gain, and on and on.

The North put an end to it.

The Thirteenth Amendment put an end to slavery, not the war. In fact, slaves were held longer in the Union slave states than in the Confederate States.

You expected to milk slavery, I realize, all who attempt this argument ultimately fall back on slavery since they have nothing else with which to make their argument, and since slavery wasn't the primary issue, it ultimately fails as an underpinning of the Union causus belli.

The invasion of the southern states by the northern states was never about slavery; it was always for economic hegemony by New England corporate interests, of whom Lincoln was a bought and paid for representative. Lincoln had a 25 year long history of merchantilist interests, having been a Whig all his political life, and an ardent supported of tax funded projects benefiting a chosen elite, of which he was a member. Most of the robber barons of the late 19th cnetury owe their fabulous wealth to Lincoln and the Union army.

The North dropped the ball when it let Reconstruction end without fully integrating the south and requiring full rights for all human beings.

They had no choice to end their reign of terror in the south, another civil war was brewing. Southern men basically said get out or we'll throw you out. The yankee left.

[Eric 951]

paste,

here you go, a veritable shangri-la:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061214/ap_on_re_us/holy_city_for_sale

[MRM]

Originally posted by fastpat
They had no choice to end their reign of terror in the south, another civil war was brewing. Southern men basically said get out or we'll throw you out. The yankee left.

Yeah, that worked out so well for them the last time they tried it. I'm sure that's why the North left.

[oldE]

The Gospel According to Pat:
"You have no idea what you're talking about, which is to be expected I suppose."
" Your knowledge of the period is thin."
"As someone living outside the Confederacy, it's none of your business what we do here."
"That's a position not just born of ignorance, it applauds ignorance and wishes for it to expand."
" Unfortunately, now the yankee filth is coming back, more's the pity."


Telll us Pat. Do you have your witty barbs numbered for speedy reparte'?

Les

[Eric 951]

Originally posted by fastpat
[[b]
Yes, that's the other issue always brought up by those with no real truth on their side. Here's the fact, in the Confederacy the vice-president had even less power than that position in the Union. Second, Stephens may or may not have said that while in his vice-presidential capacity, I don't know nor do I care. It is a fact that his position affected nothing in or out of government, nor did it agree with even a slim majority of those in the Confederate government. In short it never had the slightest value (except to foks like you) nor did it reflect any official position.

So, no point made there.

Right. If the facts disgaree with paste's views, there is "no point made".

[fastpat]

Originally posted by oldE
The Gospel According to Pat:
"You have no idea what you're talking about, which is to be expected I suppose."
" Your knowledge of the period is thin."
"As someone living outside the Confederacy, it's none of your business what we do here."
"That's a position not just born of ignorance, it applauds ignorance and wishes for it to expand."
" Unfortunately, now the yankee filth is coming back, more's the pity."


Telll us Pat. Do you have your witty barbs numbered for speedy reparte'?

Les

I've posted a veritable encyclopedia of information for these "scholars" in support of all my positions, which they've not be able to absorb, are you crying out for me to post them again?

[oldE]

Pat,

As far as I'm concerned, you are free to post all the selected quotes and mish-mash of 'historical fact' you wish. It is, more or less, a free country, (mine too ). Just lay off the blather dumping on people's lack of knowledge, thought, where they live and "Yankee filth".

Although I suspect anyone who wanted to read 'The world according to Lew Rockwell' would just go to his website, I would HOPE your purpose for posting is to win hearts and minds. Responding to comments which are contrary to your point of view, whether frivolous or well meant, with venomous verbiage does NOT further your cause. (Unless your cause is to have your name added to the list of those one would not be happy to sit with and have a beer.

As a one-time student of military history and strategic studies, (and for your general font of knowledge, I have not yet read Uncle Tom's Cabin), I take an interest in some of your posts with historical threads. Some are interesting, some inspired and some are unfortunate. It is always good to know what others are thinking and the most inportant word here is 'thinking'.

All the best,
Les

[fastpat]

Originally posted by oldE
Pat,

As far as I'm concerned, you are free to post all the selected quotes and mish-mash of 'historical fact' you wish.

What I've posted is well researched literature from historians and economists, it's in textbook form for the most part. It's not a "mishmash", whatever that might be in your mind.

It is, more or less, a free country, (mine too ).

Good, you might be interested in the threat posed by the Union against Canada.

Just lay off the blather dumping on people's lack of knowledge, thought, where they live and "Yankee filth".

I call them as I see them, those that advocate, or think it amusing, to talk about total war against a civilian population are filth.

Charleston after the indescriminate bombardment of the Union Army. I don't find this amusing, do you?

Although I suspect anyone who wanted to read 'The world according to Lew Rockwell' would just go to his website, I would HOPE your purpose for posting is to win hearts and minds.

No, it's not for that purpose. It's for the intellectually curious, of which there are a fair number on this forum, but I don't suffer fools gracefully, and won't be starting now.

Responding to comments which are contrary to your point of view, whether frivolous or well meant, with venomous verbiage does NOT further your cause. (Unless your cause is to have your name added to the list of those one would not be happy to sit with and have a beer.

I have enough friends, possibly enough for three or four people, much less just myself; so I'm not here to make new friends by obsequious behavior.

As a one-time student of military history and strategic studies, (and for your general font of knowledge, I have not yet read Uncle Tom's Cabin), I take an interest in some of your posts with historical threads. Some are interesting, some inspired and some are unfortunate. It is always good to know what others are thinking and the most inportant word here is 'thinking'.

All the best,
Les

Then, you can start by viewing this bibliography compiled by Clyde Wilson, Professor, Department of History, University of South Carolina.

[rcecale]

You post this...

Originally posted by fastpat
Charleston after the indescriminate bombardment of the Union Army. I don't find this amusing, do you?

And expect us to believe this?

Originally posted by fastpat
They had no choice to end their reign of terror in the south, another civil war was brewing. Southern men basically said get out or we'll throw you out. The yankee left.

Now THAT is amusing!



Randy