When I said "Them" it's whomever you want it to be. Basically its anyone who acts like "that" in the video. And yes, Santa Clarita is not what it was when I moved there 20 years ago. We didn't used to get purse snatching at all, now they're pretty common at WalMart (wow, what a surprise).

Up until a fews years ago, anyone travelling through Hayden Lake, Idaho could tell you who "they" were. God help the black family that broke down on some rural stretch anywhere near there. What race are the folks that wound up owning the skinhead compound? Not "Aryan", which was all that mattered to "them". "They" or "them" can be any color, anywhere. Most of us recognize them when we see them, and that recognition is not by skin color; more by circumstance and attitudes displayed.

On a different note, anyone ever been through Browning, Montana? Smack in the middle of the Blackfoot res. Three of us were heading to the Rosebud to attempt to rid it of prairie dogs years ago and stopped in Browning for gas. My buddy filled up the van and went inside to pay. The asshat behind the counter told him three times the price showing on the pump. "Fuch you" was my buddy's natural reply, until he turned around to leave and saw about 20-some-odd young Blackfoot men blocking his way, with more starting to mill around us in the van. Between the three of us we had enough fire power (about 4-5 rifles each, with a couple thousand rounds for each rifle) to take down the whole goddam town. My buddy turned around, smiled, said "sorry, my mistake" and paid. Guy behind the counter says "thank you for visiting Browning, come back soon". We left peacefully, in one piece, and enjoyed the rest of our trip. Some of you guys spouting off about shooting it out with a big mob have obviously never been in such a situation. Armed as we were, and all very good with our chosen arms, we wouldn't have had a prayer. One guy with his Glock, Sig, or whatever? Get real.

You guys live in a fantasy world.

With the number of witnesses, the amount of damage, etc- I would have emptied 2 full clips into that trash and no one would have missed them.

Everyone owes it to society to take out the trash every now and then.

In Georgia, the protection under the law re: personal defense is moving even more towards those of the honest citizen. Frankly that scene in GA would never have happened. By the 2nd car there would be some dead brothers.

Your buddy was shown a peaceful yet somewhat pricier way out. Your life was never in danger- just your wallet.

Comparing a gas station scene to a riot in the streets is not apples to apples.

When someone is kicking in your windshield with you in the car- you're pretty much done having to prove anything. Those that sit there and say they wouldn't shoot need to reach down and feel for a set of cajones. I know you guys live in CA- but geez where is your survival instinct? Right or wrong- wouldn't you want to live?

I agree though- I would have run them over instead. I could see my argument in court, "Sorry- I couldn't see him after he shattered my windshield with his boot." Heh.

I may be a liberal, but on this subject I'm glad I live in Texas where you could shoot these idiots and get no billed by the grand jury.

"If your in the wrong neighborhood at the wrong time, the accelerator pedal is your friend."
~89911

Well, it's situations like this that make me glad I live in Northern Canada. The most dangerous situations we face are Bears or icy roads. We have the odd young wannabe gangstas but rarely do they get carried away at all.
BTW: On the other hand, if faced with an attacking mob, I feel confident that I would retaliate with my foot hard on the gas. I have a "hatred" of people who commit these acts of violence.
I also support the idea of vigilante justice to deal with these asshats.

All very true. I'm not sure anything more than the cars were ever in danger in these videos, however. Would I just walk away from my car and let them have at it? If it wasn't my Porsche, yes. If even one of those tough guys took a poke at me or my family, would I start shooting and hope for the best? Hell yes. If given the opportuntiy to just leave (in one piece) when confronted with a mob like that, the prudent thing to do is to take them up on the offer. Live to fight another day and all of that.

Indeed.

I don't know for sure what I would have done in that situation, but at some point, as the real fear for my well being continued to rise, I would have snapped and entered "F.U." mode and would have used my car anyway possible to get the fuch out of there. I later would probably stupidly attempt revenge on the b@stards that did this to me one way or another. I am a pro at holding a grudge!

in texas there is a time honored defense;
"he needed killing."

sounds about right for some people.

"On October 8, 1918, Corporal Alvin C. York of the 328th Infantry (singlehandedly) fought a desperate battle with a German machine gun detachment and (singlehandedly) brought into camp 132 prisoners."

http://www.alvincyork.org/Diary.htm

In your world, Audie Murphy would be a nameless nobody.

There would be no 300 Spartans.

Or no desperate stand at Bastogne, or at Rourkes Drift.

I think you should read the Clausewitz quotes i posted again fella. It's all in the mindset. In order to succeed where others will fail, you must first believe you can.

Just read the roles of the Congressional Medal of Honor winners to see what one truly determined man with the will to survive can do. But, some people are just meant to be victims, no matter how well armed.

Like the French. ;)

Definitely. :)

By no means is anyone saying to go looking for this kind of fight, but if it's thrust upon you,

"Fortune favors the bold."
~Homer

Those are all real heroes, sniper. Incredible men one and all, putting their own lives and safety well below that of the men around them. They stand out like they do in part for one very important reason: most guys that try that ***** get rather uncerrimoniously killed. In the scenario we are discussing, that would be over some crapped out minivan. I think every one of these heroes would be bright enough to see it wasn't worth it. I did say (I'll assume you missed it) that if myself or my famly were in any danger, you can bet your ass I would fight. Just not over a car in a very low-odds situation. Real heroes put the macho bull***** aside and think about those things.

First, I clearly stated many times that i am talking about a situation where one is likely facing death.

And i'd ask, what is a 'real' hero?

Audie Murphy was 5'6" tall and about 145lbs, but fought like a lion. He was BOLD in the face of enemy fire and vastly superior numbers. He kept his head, and siezed the initiative with a furious assualt.

He set an example that others should follow.

US Infantry doctrine states that when ambushed one CHARGES into the ambush. Charge IN to the fire, sieze the initiative, with bold and lightning quick decisiveness.

Shock the enemy with your ferocity.

This tactical mindset is also very much present in a bound and overwatch tactical withdrawal from contact drill. A drill that requires only two men, and a drill that i performed literally hundreds of times when i was in the service during various field problems. A drill that is by design intended to maximize suppressive firepower to hold off a vastly superior enemy force (armed with military grade weaponry) long enough for a fire team to break contact.
Everything i am saying is entirely consistent with current US military training and tactical doctrine, and is supported by countless historians and historical quotes, and can be observed in countless battles throughout history. The people i have quoted are all required reading at West Point for a reason.

I made the citations and utilized the quotes i did to illustrate that a single man can accomplish unbelievable feats if he does not condemn himself to timid inaction. I supported this position with direct quotes from Patton, Homer, Clausewitz, and Grant.

While many Congressional Medal of Honor or Victoria's Cross winners died, many did NOT die, and lived ONLY because they also did not quit or surrender.

Some of the posters in this thread appear to be suggesting that you're better off just sitting there compliant, sort of like how WAR(Women Against Rape) told women for years to submit to rapists to 'reduce the risk they'd be killed.'

Clearly you have never heard of Chesty Puller or Bull Simmons. Or Patton.

All very "macho" men, all storied war heroes and great military leaders.

And if i may, how does simply stating that when confronted with a life threatening and seemingly 'hopeless' situation you'd rather fight than rely on the goodwill of a rioting mob make one 'macho' exactly anyway?

I am merely offering sound professional advice.

When presented with a hopeless life or death situation, attack.

Absolutely. Attack when faced with a hopeless life of death situation; I could not agree more. But we were talking about the video. I simply don't see this "hopeless life or death situation" in the video. It looks like they were satisfied to trash the cars. Again, if they even hinted at coming after me, or my family, the rules change from just trying to walk away to trying to survive. Far different thing.

I would rape the horses, and ride off on the women

excellent MO
would take them all by surprise, they'de never see that coming !

How anyone can semi-defend that behavior by saying Oakland was already screwed up, and admit voting for ol' Moonbeam is beyond me.

This problem absolutely is a direct result of inaction from the governing bodies. This is not the first time I've seen videos from Oakland. I think 60 Minutes did a piece a few years ago.

Maybe a few less park employees and a few more cops. A curfew, or even marshall law can be imposed. I also feel that this would justify a state of emergency, and allow the mayor to ask for military help. That this happens in America is an absolute travesty. I'd feel safer in the middle east.

Jerry should spend less time worrying about his friggin commune, and worry more about how to keep his constituents safe. How did he make AG?