Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?

[Superman]

Art, "family wage" jobs are like musical chairs. when the music stops, several million people are standing with no chair. If there were vacant family-wage jobs out there going unfilled, I would agree with you. As it is, I do not. And quite frankly, the "markets" are not going to provide enough of them for all the folks that need them. Heck, if the "Markets" were faced with a situation where that were true, you'd see a lot of frightened business owners. It would be the end of fast food and convenience stores as we know them. The "economy" would have to be ridiculously and insanely white hot in order for that to happen. Too hot to handle.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by skipdup
Seems to me that a head of household earning minimum wage has either recently started a new, very low level job or is being paid what they're worth - based on performance and/or the job they're doing.

+1

If I don't like my paycheck, I (not govt) need to do something about it. How is this simple concept lost on so many?

Life is not always fair. One has to play the cards they are dealt and make the best of it. Maybe some of these "head of household" types should have made better choices when they were younger instead of spitting out a bunch of babies before they were able to properly pay for them.

Sure there are always going to be some examples of true hard luck stories, but the majority of folks flipping burgers for minimum wage are not going to continue to do so for the rest of their lives.

[BK911]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
If you are over 21, raising a family, and still only earning MW, you are an idiot!!

Dude seriously, don't hold back. Tell us what you really think.



I don't claim to be as smart as you guys, and I have trouble keeping up with most of the conversations, but this one seems pretty simple.

-Raise minimum wage.
-Prices for all goods go up to compensate.
-Joe schmo makes more but has to spend more so he really didn't get a raise.
-I have to spend more but I didn't get a raise, so I actually got a cut in pay.
-So it doesn't really help anybody, but it hurts many.

[SlowToady]

Supe, do you mind if I PM you?

[Nathans_Dad]

Wow, I must be seeing things...

Since 1973 there have been multiple minimum wage increases, the minimum wage in 1973 was $2 an hour. The poverty rate was 11%.
Ten minimum wage increases later the minimum wage is now $5.15 and the poverty rate is.....12%.

Never mind, THIS time it will work...I swear.

[Rick Lee]

I just have a problem with the gubmint setting prices on anything. When will they start capping what we can sell cars and houses for?

[widebody911]

To those in favor of 'market forces' (ie plantation owners) - any rough idea of where would the "minimum wage" be if it were not mandated by state/federal law?

[JSDSKI]

Seems like minimum wage earners will just get a little more spending money. Probably a wash in terms of stimulating economy, adding a bit in tax revenue, and increasing business expense.

[JSDSKI]

Originally posted by Nathans_Dad
Never mind, THIS time it will work...I swear.

Come on, Rick. You forgot to carry the "CEO Golden Parachute" and divide by the "War on Terror"

[JSDSKI]

BK911,

We should consider the additional spending money added to the economy when the increase purchases goods and services. It provides addtional income to businesses and their workers and a general boost to the economy. Let's say I make an additional $2 bucks an hour over a 40 hour week, or $80 (less tax). So, I take that money and my girlfriend to a movie and a pizza. Now the movie company is happier, the movie theater is happier, the pizza maker is happier. Multiply that times 5 or 6 million workers.

Now, we can start worrying about inflation.

Because, you've always gotta have something to worry about.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
BK911,

We should consider the additional spending money added to the economy when the increase purchases goods and services. It provides addtional income to businesses and their workers and a general boost to the economy. Let's say I make an additional $2 bucks an hour over a 40 hour week, or $80 (less tax). So, I take that money and my girlfriend to a movie and a pizza. Now the movie company is happier, the movie theater is happier, the pizza maker is happier. Multiply that times 5 or 6 million workers.

Now, we can start worrying about inflation.

Because, you've always gotta have something to worry about.

So what's next.....raise minimum wage to $20/hr? I bet that would really jump start the economy? Govt mandating pay scales is just wrong period.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by on-ramp
MW is sub-poverty wage. you can't live on it. it's more symbolic than anything.

It isn't intended to live on, it is a starting point. You work hard, prove you are worth more money, you get a raise. Pretty simple. Every American, and even non-Americans get a free education, what they choose to do with it, affects how they will live the rest of their lives, there are many college grant programs and skilled trade programs available. I stand by my statement, no one is forcing anyone to stay at a job where they don't get paid as much as they feel they are worth, and no one is keeping anyone from taking a 2nd job or getting a Pell Grand or leaning a trade to better themselves. For the record, our people start at close to double the MW. Why isn't anyone saying anything about how much Pro athletes, actors and other multimillionaire people, just picking on the CEOs who run businesses (true, some do screw up and should be punished) while shock jock Howard Stearn gets am $82.9 million BONUS on top of his $500 million contract!!! One thing that is being missed, the tax cost on the business owner, he has to pay the gubmit a few bucks per buck in this forced seizure of his investment. So in reality, that raise is doubling the money the owner has to pay out, so he will let people go, he will work more and cut others hours, raise prices, that is how he will be able to stay open.

[Christien]

There's talk of the gov't here raising minimum wage as well. One things you guys have neglected to notice is what it does for the # of jobs available. Working from CDN stats, small business accounts for approx. 50% of jobs in Ontario. I can tell you from experience that most small business owners aren't getting filthy rich on the backs of their employees. There's a certain budget for labour, and the economics of that are simple. If there's $100 per opening hour to pay for labour and minimum wage goes up, well, there's not more budget to pay for labour, which means someone loses their job.

This happened to me as a teenager in a *****ty dishwashing job. NDP (left) provincial gov't was elected, raised minimum wage from about $5.50 to about $7, I lost my job. The restaurant didn't have suddenly start making more profits to pay employees a higher wage, so fewer employees got paid more to do more work. Plain and simple. Okay, not the end of the world for me, because it was an evening/weekend job in high school, but it would suck for someone relying on that for a living.

And FTR, I disagree with the statement posted earlier that minimum wage shouldn't be for raising a family. I think that's the exact point of minimum wage, to ensure people can manage their household adequately. It may mean both parents working, and it may not work in extreme cases of something like 8 kids, and of course shouldn't allow for extravagances, but generally, minimum wage should be sufficient to feed, house and clothe a family.

edit: just to clarify, min. wage in Ont. is $7.75/hr, which works out to $15,500/yr based on 40 hrs/wk and 50 wks/yr. That's before tax dollars, but you wouldn't get taxed much at that income level. That's more than enough to live comfortably on. I lived on less than that in university and I had to pay tuition and books (approx. $5k) out of that each year. And I didn't live in poverty. Not even close.

[fastpat]

Originally posted by jkarolyi
So what's the first order of business for our newly elected socialist nee democrat congress? Raising the minimum wage by almost 50%. How is this supposed to help anyone? Do democrats honestly think that McDonalds and Tyson foods will say "Oh, jeez, out of the goodness of our hearts, lets give up our profits and fat executive pay so we can pay these increased wages"?

Firstly, corporations will have increased incentives to replace people with computers or automation. Why do you need someone taking your order at Mickey Ds? Introduce touch screen ordering systems. Already done for airport check-in! High wages encourage investment in labor saving devices...history has proven this. More factories will close shop and move overseas. Prices of goods and services will rise, further feeding inflation.

Labor should be priced at its true market value...trying to regulate this just causes problems.

Can anyone think of any advantages of increasing the minimum wage other than fulfilling some feel-good campaign promises? Should we require all congress members to take a class in economics?

The minimum wage has been debunked as doing anything other than harming those it is supposed to help decades ago, but when pols need to appear to do "something" this is just too easy to fix on. The fact that it is harmful doesn't matter because those it harms don't matter, most don't vote.

Mythology of the Minimum Wage

By DW MacKenzie

Once again politicians and pundits are calling for increases in the legal minimum wage. Their reasons are familiar. Market wages are supposedly immoral. People need to earn a "living wage." If the minimum wage went up at least to $7, or better still to near $10 an hour, millions would be lifted out of poverty.[1]

The economic case against minimum wage laws is simple. Employers pay a wage no higher than the value of an additional hour's work. Raising minimum wages forces employers to dismiss low productivity workers. This policy has the largest affect on those with the least education, job experience, and maturity. Consequently, we should expect minimum wage laws to affect teenagers and those with less education. Eliminating minimum wage laws would reduce unemployment and improve the efficiency of markets for low productivity labor.

There are a few economists who have been leading the charge for higher minimum wages. Some of these economists have obvious ideological leanings. Economists connected with the Left -orientated Economic Policy Institute and the Clinton Administration have concocted a rational for minimum wage increases. According to these economists higher wages make employees more content with their jobs, and this leads to higher worker productivity. Thus workers will be worth paying a minimum wage once their employers are forced to pay these wages. Of course, if this were true — if employers could get higher productivity out of less educated and experienced workers by paying higher wages — they would be willing to do this without minimum wage legislation. But the economists who make this case claim to have empirical evidence that proves them right. Economists David Card and Alan Krueger have published studies of the fast food industry indicated that small increases in the minimum wage would cause only minor job losses, and might even increase employment slightly in some instances. These studies by Card and Krueger show only that a small increase in minimum wage rates might not cause much of an increase in unemployment. Such studies ignore the fact that the current level of minimum wages are already causing significant unemployment for some workers.

The economic case for minimum wage increases has gained some ground with public and even professional opinion. Even some free market leaning economists, like Steven Landsburg, have conceded that minimum wages increases do not affect employment significantly.[2] Landsburg notes that critics of minimum wage laws emphasize that they have a disproportionate effect on teens and blacks. But he dismisses these critics because "minimum wages have at most a tiny impact on employment … The minimum wage kills very few jobs, and the jobs it kills were lousy jobs anyway. It is almost impossible to maintain the old argument that minimum wages are bad for minimum-wage workers."

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by JSDSKI
BK911,

We should consider the additional spending money added to the economy when the increase purchases goods and services. It provides additional income to businesses and their workers and a general boost to the economy. Let's say I make an additional $2 bucks an hour over a 40 hour week, or $80 (less tax). So, I take that money and my girlfriend to a movie and a pizza. Now the movie company is happier, the movie theater is happier, the pizza maker is happier. Multiply that times 5 or 6 million workers.

Now, we can start worrying about inflation.

Because, you've always gotta have something to worry about.

No, it won't work like that, as cost of the movie, and the pizza will go up, so people will be less likely to go to a movie, and if the do, it will be the cheap show, they won't be buying popcorn & cokes either, and will more likely rent a movie and make a pizza at home, so the pizzeria owner & movie theater manager won't be happier, while the theater, being a corporate owned, will just pass the cost on, while the pizzeria owner will have to cut someone's hours or fire them and try to pass the increase on, as the best pizza places are family owned without a golden parachute

[cool_chick]

Originally posted by azasadny
I love it when people say "You can't raise a family on minimum wage"! Well, no shi_!!! You're not supposed to have a family if you're only earning the minimum wage! Be responsible for providing for your own family and quit looking to the guvment for a handout.... that's what I'd like to say to those idiots...

I think the point is, at least according to Superman, if minimum wage is so low as it currently is, they ARE getting a handout...they are living in poverty and qualify for the handout. If it's raised, they won't qualify for government handouts. It'll save all of us money.

[Moneyguy1]

Them that have don't understand them that don't.


And visey versey......

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
Them that have don't understand them that don't.


And visey versey......

I worked 2 jobs to fund my college, it comes down to the decisions you make in life, if you choose to work hard and save you have a better chance at working your way out, if you sit around smoking a carton of cigarettes, drinking a case of old Milwaukee whining that the man don't pay you enough, with 4 kids screaming in the background, while you are playing a PS3, you will never leave. Many have worked there way out.

[Rick Lee]

Why in the world should anyone be guaranteed a min. wage by law? If you can't live on min. wage, then you work harder or smarter to get ahead. If you can't, that's too bad. Life is hard on stupid people. Everyone should have the right to fail.

[Racerbvd]

"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should
be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself"