Raising minimum wage...how is this supposed to help?

[Jim Richards]

life as an anecdote...gotta love it.

[Superman]

Riiiiight, Byron. Similar to your earlier prediction that cost increases will double? Really? I think you can exaggerate better than that. Tell them it will triple. Tell them that burgers will cost $20.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by Superman
One more thing. Bryan and Len are using the "sky is falling" argument,

Hold the phone there professor, "Len" hasn't posted in this thread yet.

[SlowToady]

Originally posted by Racerbvd
I have friend who own manufacturing businesses that start people at MW for the piece work have clearly said that it cost them money and they have also stated they will most likely let some people go, I also have clients in the food business, and the last increase cost one of them an extra $60K a year just in the payroll taxes, something you keep forgetting about the fact the the owner is having to pay tax on the extra $$$ the state & gubbmit are forcing them to pay instead of letting the workers earn it. What ever happened to people wanting to earn a living, & prove them selves, and work their way up??

We're talking about the economy as a whole here, not our personal friends business. All the friends you know and all the friends I know and even PP itself could go under and the economy could still be on the rise. We're looking at the forest here, not the trees.

And, don't jump to conclusions about what I am "forgetting," such as payroll taxes. I hear constantly how much more money "Dad" would take in if it weren't for this that and the other thing.

Who said anywhere that people shouldn't have to "prove themselves and work their way up"? I didn't read anyone saying this, except for you asking the question.

Refer to Supe's post so that I don't have to drone on about labor costs and business volume.

A small increase in non-skilled labor wages isn't going to kill the economy.

Refer to Supe's comment about anyone earning <$15/hr being a drain on your tax dollars.

Isn't that one of the reasons they are so well compensated?

Possibly, but here's a bigger reason: The Old Boy Network with the Board of Directors who approves the executives pay. I have a few articles at home somewhere that document this; that Executives pay has more to do with social/business connections than with company performance.

[lendaddy]

If I had to give all my guys a $2.50 raise, I guaraneffintee you that I would let atleast one guy go.

How many business owners that employ low level people have an extra $5,000 a month extra profit lyin' around for every 10 employees they have?

[widebody911]

Originally posted by lendaddy
If I had to give all my guys a $2.50 raise, I guaraneffintee you that I would let atleast one guy go.

If all your employees are @ M-W, you have other issues...

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by widebody911
If all your employees are @ M-W, you have other issues...

None of mine are, but the principle is the same for businesses that do.

So, Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky and Mike can afford an extra round for the group at the bar each week, but Ralph is S.O.L.

[SlowToady]

Originally posted by lendaddy
If I had to give all my guys a $2.50 raise, I guaraneffintee you that I would let atleast one guy go.

How many business owners that employ low level people have an extra $5,000 a month extra profit lyin' around for every 10 employees they have?

The MW increase is being implemented over the course of 2 years. Should lessen the impact, no? The end result is the same, in terms of the wage, but gives the employer ample time to drum up new business or increase productivity and or efficiency.

Hell, the raise might even encourage your guys to work harder, produce more in less time, and save you money, or make you more.

[lendaddy]

And I have news for you, if the lowest paid guys on the shop floor get a $2.50/hr raise, the line will be deep at the bosses door from the others.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by SlowToady

Hell, the raise might even encourage your guys to work harder, produce more in less time, and save you money, or make you more.

Hells yea, it worked for GM, thems is some motivated muthas I tells ya

Welcome to the real world.

[SlowToady]

How's this for news:

If getting a raise doesn't make your guys work harder, then you shouldn't have hired them in the first place.

And I have news for you, if the lowest paid guys on the shop floor get a $2.50/hr raise, the line will be deep at the bosses door from the others.

So you tell them no, they either stay or quit, and the ones that quit can be easily replaced. Hmmm.....

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by SlowToady
[B]How's this for news:

If getting a raise doesn't make your guys work harder, then you shouldn't have hired them in the first place.



So you tell them no, they either stay or quit, and the ones that quit can be easily replaced. Hmmm.....

In an effort to be polite I will just say that I don't think you have any or much experience in business.

Anyway, you don't give raises to make people work harder, you give people raises for their hard work(as a method of retention).

[SlowToady]

I was going to make a smart ass reply with something along the lines of the economic experience of those who claim the world is going to end due to this MW increase, but since you've been polite, I will be also.

Since I seem to have no understanding of business, with my idea that increases in wages generally make motivated people work harder, could you set me straight on why this is incorrect?

edit()
I didn't see your second line originally, my apologies.

[b]

Anyway, you don't give raises to make people work harder, you give people raises for their hard work(as a method of retention).
[/b[

And I wouldn't necessarily argue with that, but since you have no choice as to whether or not this "raise" (wage increase) is given, I was being optimistic and suggesting maybe your workers would be motivated to work even harder because of the extra money. It seems that someone working for low wages would work harder when they receive more money for it. I realize that we're talking about the forest, not the trees, but out of my own experience, I work harder when my pay is higher.

And, giving raises to increase worker productivity is exactly what Henry Ford did. He paid well above market wages so that his workers would produce more, thus requiring less workers to do the same work. Worked pretty damn well. Just one example, but I think it somewhat illustrates I'm not completely off my rocker.

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by SlowToady

Since I seem to have no understanding of business, with my idea that increases in wages generally make motivated people work harder, could you set me straight on why this is incorrect?

Experience and an understanding of human nature. I have never, ever, once seen one of my guys work harder after a raise (and again you get the raise for what you've done already, as a bribe to keep you from looking elsewhere for employment).

People are people and their internal work ethic guides them.

Why is it that the hardest working people I've ever seen are also the lowest paid? How much harder will the migrant apple picker work for $2.50 more an hour? Answer.........none.

[SlowToady]

(pointless)

[lendaddy]

Originally posted by SlowToady
(pointless)

I agree, as an employer I have seen hundreds of raises for my guys and not once did I ever see (or expect)an increase in performance. As your experience grows you will come to realize this. It's all about human nature...the hungry(no I don't mean food) are always the hardest workers.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally posted by lendaddy
Hells yea, it worked for GM, thems is some motivated muthas I tells ya

Welcome to the real world.

Len, you (and all other small businesses) don't matter in this argument. The guys arguing for minimum wage increases are all under the impression that BIG business is making huge profits off of the multitudes of the underpaid heads of households just trying to humbly raise their families of four on minimum wage.

They are not talking about the true multitudes of unskilled highschool kids or dropouts that are really cutting their teeth on minimum wage flipping burgers or mowing lawns.

All I know is that if it ever hits $30/hr, I am going to quit my stressful job and start flipping burgers (at least for a few years until inflation catches up). Maybe by then the feds will require the burger joints and small businesses to gaurantee huge retirement plans also. Hey maybe being a liberal isn't so bad!

OK, I am done wasting my breath.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by Moneyguy1
. Some citizens do not have the ammunition to aspire to high position.

Great, lets reward people for being losers. Anyon can try harder!!!

[Jim Richards]

Len, are your workers' raises COLA-type raises, or are they part of promotions where the worker's responsibility grows? COLA-type raises will unlikely result in more work output.

The min wage thing is a COLA that hasn't been seen for 10 years (except in some states). Funny thing, gov't has had their annual COLAs. LOL!

[Nathans_Dad]

Originally posted by Superman
Yeah, you are seeing things. You're seeing what you WANT to see. Truth is, $2 in 1973, adjusted for inflation, became $8.83 in 2005.

So your point is that minimum wage increases are to keep up with inflation?

I thought your point was the the poor people in America need the increase to get by. Any response to the fact that the poverty level in America has not changed despite 12 minimum wage increases?

If your goal is to reduce poverty by raising the wages of those making minimum wage, wouldn't you expect that to have occurred with past raises?