Big OOPS at Dulles

[Jim727]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/12/15/Navigation/177/211116/Water+cannon+salute+to+retiring+United+Airlines+Bo eing+777+pilot+goes+sadly.html

I'd hate to be the guy who pushed the "foam" button instead of the "water" button. Last I heard, the foam was sucked well into the engines and - obviously - put the fires out so the A/C had to be towed. Foam is also corrosive, so this will require both engines R&R plus a cross-country ferry flight for maintenance. OOPS!

[Jim Richards]

Heh, heh, heh. Maybe the foam was to help cushion the pilot into his retirement.

[Jim727]

He may need it - airline retirement has been hosed. I know of at least one UAL 747 Captain (30+ years of service) whose retirement check, thanks to the bankruptcy terms, is $1,100/month. No, that's not a mistype.

[masraum]

Originally posted by Jim727
He may need it - airline retirement has been hosed. I know of at least one UAL 747 Captain (30+ years of service) whose retirement check, thanks to the bankruptcy terms, is $1,100/month. No, that's not a mistype.

Which may be less than they were expecting, but is still tons better than most people get.

[Jim727]

Originally posted by masraum
Which may be less than they were expecting, but is still tons better than most people get.

Pretty sad state for American retirements, then. I think it's revolting, particularly in the face of the obscene pay sports figures get.

Won't go into how UAL mgmt literally stole the employees' retirement funds and transferred the assets to themselves.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally posted by masraum
Which may be less than they were expecting, but is still tons better than most people get.

+1.

Most people get a coffee mug and a "thanks a lot, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out" from some "manager" half their age. We should all be so fortunate as that guy.

[RKC]

No, both Republican honor and Democratic decency indicate that promises by companies should be kept. If management gave them too much, then the company should go belly up and give some other management at another company a chance to do better (Southwest?). But to make a promise and then wiggle out of it is un-manly, unseemly and just plain wrong.

It's no better than if your employer stuck his hand into your 401(k) and decided to remove 1/2 the money.

[m21sniper]

Originally posted by Jim727
Pretty sad state for American retirements, then. I think it's revolting, particularly in the face of the obscene pay sports figures get.

Won't go into how UAL mgmt literally stole the employees' retirement funds and transferred the assets to themselves.

Sports players earn their money IMO.

If you could fill a stadium of 20,000 (at fifty plus bucks a pop just for nosebleed seats) 3x a week for me i'd gladly pay you what Allen Iverson or whoever else makes too.

[Jim Richards]

I thought we were talking about foam?

[RallyJon]

Won't go into how UAL mgmt literally stole the employees' retirement funds and transferred the assets to themselves.

Sounds like a Superman thread.

Any union that allows management to control pension assets shouldn't be surprised at the shaft that inevitably comes their way. Heck, these days, any worker who allows their company or their union to control their retirement assets is naive.

Hopefully in all those years of six-figure union-negotiated pay checks, the pilots managed to put a bit away for the future.

[Jim727]

Originally posted by m21sniper
Sports players earn their money IMO.

If you could fill a stadium of 20,000 (at fifty plus bucks a pop just for nosebleed seats) 3x a week for me i'd gladly pay you what Allen Iverson or whoever else makes too.

-1. To me that's a symptom of our having our priorities upside-down.

RallyJon - not sure what a "superman thread" is, but for what it's worth I had to leave a major airline due to a vision problem. "Only" 16 years of service, but never saw even one of your "...years of six-figure union-negotiated pay checks." We had new-hire pilots eligible for food stamps and their churches were offering to buy toys for the kids of at least one pilot I flew with. Your info is not consistent with reality. I suggest next time you fly somewhere, please drop into the cockpit - we (used to) like that - and let the pilots know you would like them to have a risk-filled 30 years of work and an $1,100 retirement. Do that *before* you take off.

Jim - I thought we were talking about foam, too.

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by masraum
Which may be less than they were expecting, but is still tons better than most people get.

The union screwed them, they paid in and as the ones who had invested got screwed when the unions cut them loose. I also have a friend who is in the same boat

[m21sniper]

-1. To me that's a symptom of our having our priorities upside-down.

You are not in favor of a free market economy? Strange considering that you have no doubt significantly benefited from said free market. Pilots are very highly paid afterall.

In a fixed price 'equal value' market(aka a communist state) you'd make the same as(or slightly more than) the cashier at the seven eleven.

I have no problem at all with people making what they're worth. To me a pilot is a valuable commodity, and is worth the money he makes, just as a star shooting guard is a fantastically valuable commodity, and worth every bit he can get. If you can find a job flying around Cher for 450k a year i'd applaud you, i would not deride you as being 'overpaid.'

[Racerbvd]

Originally posted by RallyJon
Sounds like a Superman thread.

Any union that allows management to control pension assets shouldn't be surprised at the shaft that inevitably comes their way. Heck, these days, any worker who allows their company or their union to control their retirement assets is naive.

Hopefully in all those years of six-figure union-negotiated pay checks, the pilots managed to put a bit away for the future.

It was the union who tossed the retired pilots on their a$$es

[stevepaa]

Jim, the link does not work.

[Jim727]

Originally posted by m21sniper
You are not in favor of a free market economy? Strange considering that you have no doubt significantly benefited from said free market. Pilots are very highly paid afterall.

In a fixed price 'equal value' market(aka a communist state) you'd make the same as(or slightly more than) the cashier at the seven eleven.

I have no problem at all with people making what they're worth. To me a pilot is a valuable commodity, and is worth the money he makes, just as a star shooting guard is a fantastically valuable commodity, and worth every bit he can get. If you can find a job flying around Cher for 450k a year i'd applaud you, i would not deride you as being 'overpaid.'

Actually, M21 I am in favor of a free market. I didn't say that overpaid sports figures weren't raking in the kind of cash that motivates their owners to overpay them, I said I think it's a symptom of upside-down priorities. We're losing jobs overseas, losing education excellence, not funding proper enforcement of our borders, not maintaining a balanced national budget, not properly funding Veterans programs, not providing security for our seaports, hell, can't even operate our seaports ourselves, etc., etc., etc., but we can find the money to pay NBA players an average of over $4Mill per year. That's upside-down priorities in my book.

Point 2: Pilots negotiate contracts - that's free market. We have an obligation to provide the service we are skilled at (safe aircraft operation) with managers who are supposed to be skilled at airline management. I think we do that rather well. I don't think enough of them do their part well.

Point 3: The airline biz is not really "free market" because it is structured - from a management/employee standpoint - to be otherwise. Basic aviation skills and experience are what they are, but training is invariably different from one airline to another, and aircraft types - which require specialized training - may not be the same. I could not take myself from the airline I worked for to another airline in the same way an engineer (or b-ball player, for that matter) can move to another employer because the pay/benefits/management/advancement/whatever is better. When you get hired by an airline you basically have your first 2 or 3 years in which you can still be mobile; after that you're locked in. Period. That is inherently not "free-market" which requires mobility of capital and services from less desirable to more desirable as a feedback and control mechanism.

If your airline goes under or you lose your medical (easy to do), you'd better be young enough because it's time for job retraining.

Unfortunately, the airline biz has basically become the only mass-transportation system in this country. I would suggest that creates a single point of vulnerability which is not good for national security.

I should have been Cher's pilot - you wouldn't believe the pax the airlines get.

[Jim727]

Stevepaa - you might have to cut/paste the url. Tried to upload a link but it wouldn't take.

[ben parrish]

Unions are the most abusive group of people and members ever forced upon the american public. Wonder why jobs are going to other countries???? $45 hr assembly line workers...give me a breaK!!
You make what you are worth and if you don't, shame on you..move on!
Retirement is not an entitlement. Save your money, invest wisely and plan for your future; don't spend like there is no tomorrow.
Unions PI$$ me off. Organized, legalized extortionist!!!

[stevepaa]

Did it and it works. Why the heck would they think shooting water jets at a plane would be okay, anyhow?


The rest of you can take all your nonsense talk of wages somewhere else. thank you very much

[Jim727]

Stevepaa- it's tradition. Don't know where it came from, but they're not shot *at* the plane, but over. Like you see fire boats do.

Ben - semi agree. I've been rather anti-union all my life, but since I don't have time for another detailed typing job (should get back to work) I will tell you that I believe a pilots' association of some kind is essential for safety. Airline managers understand money (sort of), but definitely don't understand safety until they have to pay for an accident. Airlines often ask us to do things that aren't too bright and it's only the pilots' association that maintains a pilot's clout enough to be able to decline an order to do something unsafe.