ha! i am in process of getting a teaching degree now! to heck with the automotive field!SmileWavy

Absolutely. When you take choice away from a consumer, they will never find any real value.

How about merit based pay?

Let's test all school kids at the beginning and end of every school year. If Ms. Smith's class enters the 3rd grade reading at the 2nd grade level at they leave reading at the 4th grade level, Ms. Smith should be rewarded for her teaching skills. Not only that, but the rest of the school and the district itself may be able to learn some innovative teaching techniques from Ms. Smith.

I can't bear complaints that teachers are forced to "teach to the test". If the tests do not measure real learning, that only means you need better tests. Public school kids need continual objective estimates of scholastic achievement and the differential performance of teachers in our schools needs to be addressed economically.

Even if vouchers were not allowed for private education, public schools would benefit. Let the schools compete for student enrollment. Let the teachers compete for better pay. Let the consumer choose.

Yep. Read an article about an investing group that worked under the teacher's pension plan in MA or CT (can't remember which state). The statistic that stood out was the fact the pension plan has been paying out $2 for each dollar received. The boomer march has only begun. How they expect to stay solvent over the next 2 decades is beyond me. Maybe they will take a play out of the corporate handbook: go bankrupt and let the Federal government take responsbility for the teacher's pension.

I believe that public service employees are paid as well as their private counterparts. Sure, some government employees are getting shafted, but that's true in private business, as well. Some are overworked and underpaid, and others are overpaid and underworked (ex-Home Depot CEO comes to mind). Such is life.

There are two major problems in public schools (as i see it):

1-kids out of control thanks to poor parenting and teachers are not given the authority to effectively deal with them. the bad kids ruin the experience for those that are willing to learn.

2-standardized testing that is created and authored by politicians who have zero training in education. politicians have a hard time getting votes when they tell parents to 'do their effing job' so they put the blame on teachers and create bogus tests to 'measure effectiveness'. guess what, those tests measure the effectiveness of teachers to prep kids for a test; not prepare them for the world or give them a well rounded education.


Vouchers are based on the presumption that private schools offer a better education than public schools. The problems with this assumption are as follows:

a-Private schools often enjoy apparent success becuase the deck is stacked that way. people that can afford private schools tend to be people that are intelligent and hard working; these traits are passed on to their kids. Private schools also aren't subject to the nonsensical whims of politicians (see above).

b-I have had the displeasure of know several people who secured a degree in education but were absolutely inept at controlling a classroom and, therefore, at teaching. These people did temp positions at public schools in the area (as all do before getting hired) and subsequently were told 'good luck'. Guess where most are currently employed? Private schools. Why? They tend to pay a LOT less than public schools and have to take what they can get. It's rare that a top quality educator will forgo a better salary and benefits to teach at a private school (read school full of well bred white kids who already have a leg up on life). Follow the money right?

That's because you know nothing about it...

so how does vouchers deal with who gets in where? Does where you live have any bearing any more? No doubt the best schools would have waiting lists of people with vouchers in their hands...how do you pick? Lottery? So you're telling me that I live in-disctrict for a good public school and my son can be forced to go to another one?

I think it is a lot more complicated that you guys do. An interesting experiment though...why not try it? Just don't be surprised at the unforseen consequences. I do not buy this BS that teachers are overpaid and underworked though. There are plenty of bad teachers, but most are not.

And if you think education is expensive, try stupidity.

And Paul my wife has shed tears over kids who have failed to realize their potential and fall in with the wrong crowd.

no no no. Didn't you get the memo? Teachers are all evil, overpaid and incompetent. You're just lying to us to further the NEA propaganda...along with the liberal indoctrination that your wife obviously is pounding her students with...

Here's a little 'rule' you voucher fans can chew on:

The likelihood of a student's success is in direct correlation to his/her parents AGI and the lack of untrained politicians interfering with the curriculum.

Go ahead, test it. Of particular note is the absence of the word 'voucher' (which can alternately be prounounced 'bussing').

On my project, we've currently got a situation where Elevator Constructors need to work 12-hour shifts, seven days per week. For a limited time. Eight weeks, basically.

For those of you who do not already know about Elevator Constructors, their basic hourly wage, aside from bennies, is $50 in round figures. Overtime is always paid at double-time. You do the math. I'll start you out. 12 x 7 is 84.

One more thing. In Washington State, a fairly affluent state in terms of economics, a teacher earning $34 per hour would be the wealthiest teacher I've heard of. Three of my sisters have been public school teachers in Washington State and two still are.

Same here...
 

Sounds very familar as our situation is almost exactly the same. My wife puts in 50-55 hours a week and she still can't get all of the administrivia done. BTW, my wife's school is a non-union school (charter school). I bet the teacher's salaries that are used in these surveys includes the inflated salaries of union teachers. My wife makes about $36k per year and a union teacher with the same education and experience makes about $80k a year...

This is why I want to close down government schools, take a wrecking ball to the buildings, and have salt sewn on the ground where they were standing. They're little more than sociofascist baby-sitting camps, which are dangerous to the American way of life.

We need community controlled schools, funded by the parents AND only the parents; or parochial schools.

Of course, it's ALL the parent's fault.

Vouchers aren't about killing off the government schools. They are about allowing competition and choice. This raises the quality of both government and private schools.

My wife was/is (out on child care leave right now) a NYC school teacher.

She has 3 degrees, worked in the system for 5 years and made $42k.

Left for work at 6 am and got home at 4:30 pm. Spent at least an hour each night calling parents. Graded papers and did lesson plans till around 9-10 pm.

Spent thousands of our own personal money to keep her classroom supplied with the basics. City gives you an allowance but that's generally used up in the 1st month.

I used to go with her to set up her classroom at the beginning of each year. How anyone can learn in that environment is beyond me.

Needless to say she will not be going back if I can help it.

Now if we are taking about the suburbs, different story all around. I see a lot of waste there.

That's the problem with educational spending. You need to look at specifics.

Generalizations just don't fit the individual scenarios. More money for inner cities, more fiscal oversight for the burbs.

So if the teacher's aren't getting paid enough, where the he!! is the money going? I sense a village idiot is in charge of this institution.

Probably was my wifes biggest issue.

Johnnie pulled a knife or razor in class and the wife was not allowed to send him to the pricipals office.

One parent tried to sue us because my wife had to break up a fight and one of the little angels bumped her head in the process. At least the union ponied up for a lawyer and got the thing tossed.

These girls had a long running fued and the school refused to move one to a different class.

Anyone who wants to know what your local teacher makes, just go to your districts's web site and pull up the salary schedule.

here's one

http://www.egreen.wednet.edu/pdfs/teacher0607.pdf


we get these ignorant posts on teachers' salaries every month and I keep saying the same thing.


"or to earn additional money from other employment. That time off is worth money and cannot simply be ignored when comparing earnings. "


yeah right, some teachers teach during the summer, some are smoke jumpers, to suggest that they can make any thing near what they make while teaching is ludicrous.

of course the worst of the ludicrousness was when my Gov told me I got psychic dollars teaching and that was my extra compensation

That would be the gubmintSmileWavy

Seriously, if the WSJ version is to be believed, why aren't all the teachers driving around in pimped Escalades or BMW's?

Our local school district. Only 175 teaching days/year. Work out to $53/hour.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1170455653.jpg

didn't do the math, is that assuming a 40hr wk?

And obviously, Pleasanton is way higher than the rest of the state. What are living expenses there like ie median home price etc...