Has NASCAR finally jumped the shark?

[azasadny]

Originally posted by Overpaid Slacker
I'll agree, and add that I don't understand the appeal.

Maybe this has to go on the List Of Things I'll Never Understand, which is mostly populated today with things about chicks, their rituals and genetic attraction to completely useless shiny things.

I've tried to understand NASCAR. Really, I have. I've watched races with die-hard fans, busting each others' balls and whatnot. I've read the puff pieces and the technical stuff... The personalities aren't interesting, and, honestly they seem like the WWF caricatures of 15 years ago.

There's just no "there" there.

Even with the miniscule understanding of racing that I have, I'm much more interested in ALMS or F1 than NASCAR. But, I'm not the target NASCAR demographic, and "nobody ever lost money underestimating the American public."

To answer the question, has it jumped the shark: not yet, but I think the pendulum of public interest is, if not yet swinging the other way, very near the apogee. There are, after all, only so many people who are going to be interested in it, and 99% of them live in the United States.

JP

I feel the same way about sports... I just don't get it.

[oldE]

Face it. NASCAR these days is for people who don't like cars.

You know who they are. I mean, you or I get the question from the wife all the time:"Honey, what kind of car was that?", about the silver colored mid-sized sedan we just met (in a row of 5 other silver cars) on a highway where the closing speed between the lanes of traffic was 135 mph. And you can tell her.

NASCAR folks, on the other hand have no idea about general proportions, headlight size/number/spacing, and configuration of tail lights. If we tell them that car was a '99 Alfonzo de Cradenza, they nod happily and say, "Yeah, I thought so!" They are the perfect market to appreciate the amorphus turds such as the ones parading around many US race tracks today. They know what kind of cars they are because it says so right on the car! Most of these folks don't even have the slightest clue their 'Special Edition' they paid the big bucks for 'cause it looks just like the one Bubba drives, would, if it had enough horse power, spin the front wheels. Sorry, no donuts on the front straight, unless you were planning to drive it in reverse.

If it says, "Goodyear" on the side of the winning car, then that's good enough for them. (Before you say to yourself, "Nobody's THAT dumb.", I have worked with the ultimate NASCAR fan from time to time and when he points out, with humble pride the Goodyear POS all season rim protectors on his piece of 'American Iron', you come to believe there are more than a few of them.)

NASCAR racing? Yes, it is stage managed, yes the cars are stupid fast for what is basically a 35 year old design with a steel roof panel and fibreglass on a tube frame.

But they gave up the right to be called 'Stock cars" a long time ago.

Les

PS Am I the only one who finds the "Daytona Prototypes" with Porsche, Pontiac and other engines an insult to the eyes?

[CurtEgerer]

>>>>> PS Am I the only one who finds the "Daytona Prototypes" with Porsche, Pontiac and other engines an insult to the eyes? <<<<<<

Pictures are worth a 1000 words: NASCAR's DP vs 'the other series' ......

[Rearden]

Originally posted by oldE
NASCAR racing? Yes, it is stage managed, yes the cars are stupid fast for what is basically a 35 year old design with a steel roof panel and fibreglass on a tube frame.

NASCAR cars don't have fiberglass body panels. You shouldn't so passionately detest something you know so little about. Just change the channel and don't watch it.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Rearden
NASCAR cars don't have fiberglass body panels. You shouldn't so passionately detest something you know so little about. Just change the channel and don't watch it.

Well, lower classes like regional late models do, but we see your point. Actaully, two people have made the same mistake in one thread. Shows you who knows what.

Curt, I've never understood the NASCAR version of LeMans prototypes. I think they should combine the series just like Indy and Champ car should. But, some tracks they run those on are way too short for the real deal. Can you say Phoenix? (at least they dropped that one for this year)

[cashflyer]

Originally posted by milt
Actaully, two people have made the same mistake in one thread. Shows you who knows what.

Sorry... my bad.
The only NASCAR I've ever been close to was a Jimmy Jeff Dale Kyle car at some local Chevy dealer promotion and the car on exhibit had a fiberglass shell. I guess they make their exhibit cars a little different from the track cars.

But you're right about one thing... I really do care so little about NASCAR that I didn't know what they were made of.

And I *do* change the channel.

[CurtEgerer]

I'm thinking France Inc. has the same 'designer' working on the DP's and the Car of Tomorrow.

[Rearden]

Originally posted by CurtEgerer
I'm thinking France Inc. has the same 'designer' working on the DP's and the Car of Tomorrow.

You're right. It's all about safety. Tall and wide greenhouses with big windows. Maximize driver survivability. Those DP cars sure aren't attractive. But I must say that the races are more exciting than the prettier ALMS races.

[dd74]

I have nothing against NASCAR or the fans. When you, as I have, been to Raiders games where fans from opposing teams are thrown down the LA Coliseum steps, to see the rather affable demeanor of a NASCAR fan and the politeness among the racers (players), is quite welcoming.

I've seen the race in Fontana, where in the parking lot, Mercedes Benz, Cadillac and Jaguar come close to almost outnumbering the Chevy, Ford and GMC trucks.

Where I really want to see a NASCAR race is Sonoma, CA., on the road course there. 4,000-pound cars with 750 hp being hooked left and right cannot be in the least bit boring.

[Rearden]

Originally posted by dd74
Where I really want to see a NASCAR race is Sonoma, CA., on the road course there. 4,000-pound cars with 750 hp being hooked left and right cannot be in the least bit boring.

In the April issue of Excellence, Johannes van Overbeek in a 997 GT3 turned a 1:23.5 at Sears Point. They mention that the NASCAR record is 1:15.9 with the same track configuration.

Those road races are going to be a blast to watch this year with JPM added to the mix.

[turbo6bar]

NASCAR stock cars probably have a bit more than 750 HP, but they aren't 4000 lbs. I think minimum weight is closer to 3500 lbs.

The GT3 is probably a few hundred pounds under the NASCAR, but have half the horsepower and torque. Nevertheless, 7+ seconds is a long time, and guys like Tony Stewart give up little against most/all road racers.

[dd74]

Hmmm...I can't remember from where I received those car stats for weight and hp., but I apologize if they're incorrect.

Nevertheless, I do agree about Stewart. As well Gordon, Dale Jr., Rusty Wallace and many others, all of whom have road raced cars other than stock cars. If anyone thinks ovals are all these guys can handle, they're very wrong.

Hell, I think it was Bobby Allison that Road and Track hired to give the definitive answer to America that the '74 911 and Carrera was indeed a race car with bumpers. He couldn't have come to that conclusion by just driving the car around an oval.

[jeffgrant]

The only NASCAR races I enjoy watching are the road courses... with Boris Said, Scott Pruett, and few "regulars" that can drive ANY course. That is very entertaining... remember that "pass" at the Bus Stop last year? I couldn't believe my eyes! That was a phenominally ballsy/lucky move!

But the oval races, I could care less for.

What I REALLY enjoy, though, is the behind the scenes look at the business end of the teams.

Speed does a pretty decent job with shows like "7 Days", and Racing Incorporated.

I just watched a few episodes of Racing Incorporated today that featured Hendricks racing enterprises, and it was pretty interesting.

I also enjoy the inside technical/mechanical aspects of the cars... even if it is just going around an around.

[dd74]

Yeah, I agree. I like the road races much more. In fact, it's some of my favorite road racing. To me, it's just balls out, gutsy driving in cars that one would least expect to be on a road course in the first place. This is why I've always thought if Schuey gets bored in retirement, he should just hook up with a NASCAR team as did Montoya.

The ovals are more a chess match IMO. The cool stuff are the mathematics that go into pit stops, the drafting, deal-making, etc., all preparing for the last 50 laps, which is when the real racing begins.

I wish NASCAR had more races, and on street courses like in Long Beach or San Jose. I'm not sure, but I think there is one stock car race in Mexico, which is a street course race.

[CurtEgerer]

>>>But I must say that the races are more exciting than the prettier ALMS races.<<<

What's exciting about artificially maintaining a tight pack of cars throughout the race? Passing is meaningless because the passer is re-passed by the passee every other lap - what's the point? You only really need to watch the last 5 laps - the only time a pass actually means something in NASCAR.

Being an engineer, it's more interesting to me to see the technology than bumping fenders lap after lap. Give me a 5 lap win by an R10 Turbo Diesel or 917/30 any day! I love crushing defeats ....

[Rearden]

Originally posted by CurtEgerer
Being an engineer, it's more interesting to me to see the technology than bumping fenders lap after lap. Give me a 5 lap win by an R10 Turbo Diesel or 917/30 any day! I love crushing defeats ....

I enjoy close finishes. Jordan in a buzzer beater or a last turn pass in the IRL. Beats a parade any day, IMHO.

[jmshepard]

But Rearden,
The close finishes are completely artificial, a myth perpetuated by NASCAR. NASCAR uses the mysterious debris caution to orchestrate the race to insure a close outcome. It is not a true sporting event, it is theater.
It is akin to the NFL using the holding penalty to keep a game between the Patriots and the Lions close. A holding penalty could be called on every play, but the NFL has enough understanding of the difference between sports entertainment and a true contest to moderate the officiating. If only NASCAR could refrain from their constant scheming for a close finish.
I have tried to watch NASCAR racing, but the way that the caution flag is used as a tool to keep the racing close infuriates me to the point that I cannot watch the event. To me it is an insult of my sense of fair play, an insult to real racing.
Jim S.

[jeffgrant]

Originally posted by CurtEgerer Being an engineer, it's more interesting to me to see the technology than bumping fenders lap after lap. Give me a 5 lap win by an R10 Turbo Diesel or 917/30 any day! I love crushing defeats .... [/B]

+1

[Rearden]

Originally posted by jmshepard
But Rearden,
The close finishes are completely artificial, a myth perpetuated by NASCAR. NASCAR uses the mysterious debris caution to orchestrate the race to insure a close outcome. It is not a true sporting event, it is theater.
It is akin to the NFL using the holding penalty to keep a game between the Patriots and the Lions close. A holding penalty could be called on every play, but the NFL has enough understanding of the difference between sports entertainment and a true contest to moderate the officiating. If only NASCAR could refrain from their constant scheming for a close finish.
I have tried to watch NASCAR racing, but the way that the caution flag is used as a tool to keep the racing close infuriates me to the point that I cannot watch the event. To me it is an insult of my sense of fair play, an insult to real racing.
Jim S.

Let me rephrase it. I enjoy passing. I don't enjoy follow-the-leader -- whether the reason is aero wash or one manufacturer who grossly outspends the others.

I agree with you that the phantom debris cautions are lame. But that doesn't happen as often as you think (there is usually really debris on the track -- and you know how dangerous a cut tire is at those speeds and in big groups).

[BertBeagle]

Originally posted by Scott at Pelican Parts
I'd guess over 90% of Toyota buyers don't know the Daytona 500 from the Grand Prix de Monaco. By getting involved in NASCAR, they are trying to attract a new audience (Southeastern USA).

Scott, you need to travel east of Sepulveda more. Toyota's appeal is everywhere.

I am not a fan of NASCAR racing and don't understand why so many are. I believe the results to some extent are contrived, to help ratings for one. But in spite of that it is proven that NASCAR fans are some of the most loyal fans of any sport or game to the products the sponsors sell - large numbers that translate into larger $'s.

No doubt there is a cycle. But they are making hay while the sun shines.

That said, the logistics involved and the work that goes on at the shops is all very interesting - probably because I live near it all and see it often. There are some very talented people in this area who work in the industry - fabricators, engineers, mechanics, etc. They don't make the rules or run the "show" but they produce some nice work. Everyone on this forum, as car guys who appreciate talent, would be impressed. More than a few of the mechanics, drivers etc. drive Porsche or other sports cars.