How Can You Teach Them Respect...

[Jeff Higgins]

...for the law, and for police officers, in the face of incidents like this? The following is admittedly a cross-post from our regional forum, but I thought I would share with a wider audience. First, some background on my son.

Chris is 19 and in the middle of his sophmore year at the University of Washington. A great student, he has been on the dean's list every quarter so far. Already accepted into the college of engineering. Skipped a grade back in middle school, straight 4.0's all through high school, yadda yadda. Works darn near full time at Target in the stock room to help pay for school (and his car).

He has never so much as been pulled over before. Driving my old Super Beetle until last summer, he finally saved enough (and took out his first car loan) to buy his dream car; a pretty nice low-mile '79 SC. Guards red with a whale tail, and just recently SSI's and my old single out sport muffler - perfect car for a 19 year old kid to go undetected, right? He has put some effort into learning to drive it, having attended our local PCA's Driver Skills and Driver Education programs. I have insisted on that much. We are looking forward to our first full DE season together this summer.

Anyway, here is a synopsis of what happened, shamelessly copied and pasted form the Pacific Northwest forum:

Well, it looks like Chris might get his first opportunity to pay the "Porsche tax". He just got a "too fast for conditions" ticket from a Lynnwood cop. This was at about 11:00 last night, just a few blocks from home. He was giving a couple of buddies from work a ride home (yes, three 6 foot+ kids in a 911... don't ask me how...) and was making a left turn, in the outside lane of a double left turn lane. The officer was at a stop on the cross street to Chris's right. Chris had no sooner cleared the intersection when the guy lit him up and pulled him over.

The road was bare and dry, there were no other cars in the intersection, no pedestrians in sight, he did not even chirp a tire. Chris asked him if he thought he was speeding and he said no. He just thought he went around the corner too fast. Chris pointed out that he was under complete control; not so much as a tire chirp. He asked (politely, he assures me) the officer on what criteria he was basing assesment, and the officer (according to Chris) got very upset and told him to watch himself. He told Chris he "might just have him on videotape" and if he challenges him in court, he "just might show it to the judge and tell him, in my professional opinion, that you took that corner way too fast". Interestingly, he recorded no speed on the ticket.

So how do you instill a respect for police officers in a kid after an encounter like that? He tells me it was clear fom the get-go that the guy was going to write him for something. No warning; no "kid, you might wanna slow it down a bit". Now you guys drive with us; you all know Chris keeps right up. If legitimately caught, he'll take it on the chin. He knows he will get no sympathy from me. In this case, though, he wasn't really doing anything other than taking a corner at the speed limit, without slowing down as much as the officer thought he should. He thinks he was picked on because he is a punk in a fast, flashy car. He is a punk, and he does have a fast, flashy car, but he doesn't deserve this and he knows it. He has never even been pulled over before. It's too bad his first "official" dealing with a police officer had to go down like this. Like I asked above, how do you teach them respect for these guys?

So there you have it. As his old man, I find this upsetting. I know everyone thinks their kid is a "good kid" and all of that, but he really has been no trouble for us (his brother is another story...). He has worked hard for what he has, both in school and with regards to his car. It's just a shame he had to be exposed to some loser with a badge and a grudge.

We will fight this. He will go to court. His two buddies are writing up statements, as is Chris, while this is fresh in their minds. He grabbed the paper so he can demonstrate the weather of the day. He will bring his paperwork from the PCA to show he is making an effort to be safe and learn. He will bring his UW transcripts to demonstrate he is a student, and his Target pay stubs to demonstrate he is working for what he has. This will be a learning experince for him, at the very least. I just don't particulary like the lessons he has already taken away from this.

[john70t]

What, smart people can't speed by nature?
Wonder why all the peripherals are needed, he show be innocent until proven guilty. Three large kids in a small car should help attest to that.

[Cdnone1]

Jeff
First of all you should be very proud of your son. He was smart enough to see the situation for what it was and not esculate it. Lots of kids would have started mouthing off to the Cop and made the situation much worse.
Regardless of how this works out for your son, it sure looks like you have raised a young man ready to face the challenges, both fair and unfair that he is going to face in life.
He's already figured out that not all Cops deserve your un-questioning respect just because they carry a badge. Like everything in life there are good Cops and bad Cops and I think your son has already figured that out.
He's already preparing his own defence and as a father you can't ask for anything more responsible than that.
Congrats on son and the job you've done raising him

Steve

[Christien]

My wife and I were just talking this over the other day while driving on the highway and a cop blew past us, no lights on or anything, and I b!tched about it, with our 7-month old in the car seat. She said, how are our kids going to learn to respect the law, which I agree generally they should do, with me going on about things like this. But incidents like these point out a big problem. Do post a follow-up to this after the court date - I'm really interested to see what the judge says and how your son handles it. It sounds like you've got a smart kid, especially if he can hold off mouthing off to the cop.

I thought of something while reading your post - the cop said he "may" have video evidence and he "may" use it in court if challenged. If your son (or anyone else pulled over in such instances) happened to have a camera in the car running (maybe a track cam or something), would that be admissable in court?

[rbuswell]

He is learning the lesson that really matters, namely that life isn't always fair. But don't give in just because something didn't work out so well.

The cop may not be showing up for this one and it may all blow over but to do the research and be prepared is a great way for your son to go through an ordeal that most people would "just pay the fine and forget about it". He may be more careful not to push it around a local yokel too. I'll be 52 in June and I still watch like a hawk for those guys even though I don't drive like your son does anymore (much).

[Rick V]

The only way your son is going to have any respect for the police is if he realizes that cops are people. Some peole are good, some just plain suck.
I have had run-ins with both type of cops/peole, I don't have a jaded opinion of all cops, just the ones that suck.
Cops are like a box of chocolate, you never know what your gonna get.
Best of luck

[Flatbutt1]

Actually Jeff, I think you've already succeeded in teaching him.

[overman]

How Can You Teach Them Respect...

Jeff, sounds like you've done a fine job! I wish Chris the very best with the pending court date. I wish you the best with the outcome as well... Parents often hurt more than our kids when things turn unfair... this is true for me anyhow.

[Seahawk]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
Now you guys drive with us; you all know Chris keeps right up. If legitimately caught, he'll take it on the chin. He knows he will get no sympathy from me.

That is my favorite part...life it's own self.

[oldE]

On the other hand, there are examples like Chief Knoebel, who believes the law is the same for everybody.
http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/news/10880034/detail.html

Either way, it's a learning experience.

Les

[many944s]

IMHO respect of law enforcement is EARNED not given. It sounds like this cop deserves NO respect what so ever! It is not uncommon for police to pull over people in "nice" cars just to hastle them. They get alot more "thrill" out of it when it is a kid driving.

Since Chris didn't tell him to go stick it, or to go fornicate himself, I think he gave the officer the proper amount of respect.

-Nick

[fintstone]

I drive a great deal (often cross-country) and speed often, but not much above the limit. Usually in a family car. I have only received a ticket or been stopped one time when I was actually breaking the law...but have several tickets given to me while obeying the law...all were when I was driving a relatively cool or expensive car in a very mild/safe manner. The first time I drove my 911, I got a ticket for 36 in a 15 zone. The actual speed limit was 30, which is what exactly what I was doing. My radar detector went off well in advance so I even knew he was there...Must be some sort of law enforcement penis envy.

[tabs]

What Fint??? Your not stickin up for the cops...what would GW think of U now...a traitor to the conservative cause.

Of course the Cop is right, he is ALWAYS right. The Police are always judicious in their actions.

[fintstone]

I am sure that most cops are paragons of virtue. The problem is...law-abiding citizens usually only get to meet the bad ones.

[john70t]

Police officers are a mixed bag, like everyone else.
I do know that they like to have your window cracked, and your hands on the wheel as they approach. Speak and move slowly, ask them what your going to do next, and don't start into a fast schpeel about your innocence.

Every new car they pull over could potentially be their last, so giving them the respect they deserve, and seldom get, will put you in the best odds of not getting a ticket. The rest is up for grabs.

[fintstone]

Originally posted by john70t
...

Every new car they pull over could potentially be their last, so giving them the respect they deserve, and seldom get, will put you in the best odds of not getting a ticket. The rest is up for grabs.

Generally speaking, they do not pull you over to discuss the weather. If you are pulled over and have done nothing wrong, they have already screwed up and you are at risk. There are plenty of folks out there that are obviously doing something either very wrong/unsafe for them to screw with.

[masraum]

Get a cheap traffic lawyer and he should get off. It sounds like he already respects people. Just make sure he knows that plenty/most cops are good folks, but in any and every group there will always be those that have a chip or are crap.

[Jeff Higgins]

Thanks for the kind words of support, everyone. Chris will get through this just fine and will come away from it with a better understanding of how "the system" works. Or doesn't, depending upon how this turns out. He is approaching it with his usual analytical tenacity; he already has a folder started with all the material I mentioned above, plus some more. He sees it as an interesting challenge, demonstrating far more detachment than I would have mustered at his age.

He'll call our insurance agent tomorrow to see just how high the stakes are, and then decide on a course of action from there. If there won't be any kind of insurance hit if he loses, he will fight it himself just for the experince. Kind of like a "reality civics" class of sorts. If there would be an increase in his rates, he will weigh that against a lawyer's fees and possibly hire one to deal with it. He has already made a pretty good assesment of the situation, and is kind of running a risk/cost analysis to help him decide what to do.

Shifting gears just a bit here, it's funny; every cop I have ever known personally has been a great guy. I get the impression from every one of them that they would rather do just about anything than write b.s. traffic tickets. It is certainly part of their duties to enforce traffic laws in an effort to keep our roads safe, and I certainly do not begrudge them that. There is that need, but it does seem as though there is something amiss in the way it is carried out. There seems to be too many avenues for institutionalized abuses, such as speed traps and the like, and not nearly enough in the way of checks and balances at the individual officers' level. There are the odd cops that relish throwing their weight around in these situations; "the system" does not address their abuse of power and miss-use of their positions in the least.

Between the two (the institutionalized and individual abuses) I think we have seen almost irrepairable harm done to the goodwill of communities towards law enforcement. In Chris's particular case, the officer had an opportunity to make a good or bad impression on Chris while getting the same message accross to him. Polite, respectful, but firm admonishment (even if it had ultimately included a ticket) would have gone a lot further than the petty, condescending, spitefull manner in which this officer treated him. Through this one officer, they have essentially created another wary, less than respectful citizen. They will have a hard time regaining his full trust and support. It just amazes (and saddens) me that they either cannot see that, or worse yet, may not care about that.

[legion]

A great man once said: "With great power comes great responsibility."

Too many LEOs have forgotten about the responsibility part.

[Bob's Flat-Six]

Geez, times have changed. Thirty five years ago when I was 19 and if I even told my dad ?, he would have just said slow down and pay the ticket. And the respect thing was a given.