KSM confesses for 9/11 attack:

[techweenie]

Originally posted by island_dude


in most cases, we are not pick guys up off of a battlefield. They are being turned into us with the claim that they are bad guys. The whole issue of review is critical here. It does not have the nice black and white definition that one would have during a regular war. They have considered people to be terrorists simply because they had some tenous connection to an organization supporting a "suspected" terrorist organization. Something that is suspect isn't exactly a high standard.

I am not saying that we should not gather up the real bad guys. My point is that we have gathered up many many more (using just official numbers) that happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have made a lot of the fact that some of the guys released for Gitmo came back and attacked us again. No names or details of course. I don't know about, but after being held in solitary and being interrogated for years, I might decide to join the bad guys after all.

The bottom line is that we as a nation either beleive that we have high standards and live by them or we act like a bunch of hypocrites.

About 70% of our detainees in Abu Ghraib were not guilty of anything other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. In many instances, neighbors turned them in for $500 bounties -- offered in a country where a monthly wage might be $60. So Abu Ghraib ended up being an 'insurgent factory.' It created entire families opposed to the U.S. soldiers. It's a reason the majority of Iraqis in some surveys supported shooting at U.S. soldiers.

It's not only a matter of morality, but practicality. Our presence in Iraq -- even if it ends up doing some good -- will ultimately have provided the fodder for generations-long hatred of our country.

[Turbo_pro]

I am not here to justify or criticize the actions taken by agencies entrusted with my safety. I detest these isolated acts of misconduct as much as the next guy, maybe more than most. That said, in a world where monsters hiding in caves or sitting atop rouge nations (Iran comes to mind) plot the death of 300 million + (you fill in the number) of innocent people, 3500 at a time, the death or discomfort of a few of these extremist is hardly worth my comment. Will we error in our pursuit of safety? Unfortunately yes. When those errors occur I would hope for corrections in execution rather than policy.

Of course the next question is “if I accept a few how about a bunch?” The level of acceptable evil is gauged by the level of eminent threat.

If you’re going to make an omelet you’re going to scramble some eggs. I say, scramble their eggs and I’ll eat the omelet. The omelet here is freedom and the American way of life ( as stated by ???the foundation of which is noble). Remember the enemy wants to remove your head not change your mind. He believes God tells him this.

If your taste for this omelet is waning then you are free to excuse yourself from the table.






Jim

[techweenie]

Well the breakfast analogy, albeit delicious, doesn't work for me.

The anti-American Muslim world can and has used our blind support of Israel as a wedge issue for decades. The direct action by Americans attacking a country that was no threat whatsoever and killing (your guess) 100,000 to 650,000 people and displacing as many as 2 million more is a bit more inflammatory to those who want support in their Jihad.

You may have noticed there was much less concern about our invasion of Afghanistan in the Muslim world -- because it was wholly justified.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by island_dude
Yup here we go again. The old "the Terrorists hate us for our love of freedom and way of life" crap. Turbo's point seems to be that since there are really bad guys out there doing really bad things to us, its ok for us to sweep up a bunch of potential suspects and wring and info we can get from them by whatever means we can. After all, it works on "24". The fact is, that if you look at the numbers released by the military on Gitmo, more than half have been released as no longer enemy combatants. To me this is the same a saying that they never were. So tell me, after 4 years of holding folks that clearly had the most tenous like to anything bad, how do we justify this system? Its a horrible double standard. The US holds itself up and a moral nation, yet we try to exclude ourselves from the reach of any international court. As a nation we feel free to point at the human rights abuses of others, yet we don't beleive enough in our own to handle these people in our normal system.

I have read so many claims about the enemy combatant status being a long standing and accepted way of dealing with combatants picked up during a war. The difference, is that in most cases, we are not pick guys up off of a battlefield. They are being turned into us with the claim that they are bad guys. The whole issue of review is critical here. It does not have the nice black and white definition that one would have during a regular war. They have considered people to be terrorists simply because they had some tenous connection to an organization supporting a "suspected" terrorist organization. Something that is suspect isn't exactly a high standard.

I am not saying that we should not gather up the real bad guys. My point is that we have gathered up many many more (using just official numbers) that happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have made a lot of the fact that some of the guys released for Gitmo came back and attacked us again. No names or details of course. I don't know about, but after being held in solitary and being interrogated for years, I might decide to join the bad guys after all.

The bottom line is that we as a nation either beleive that we have high standards and live by them or we act like a bunch of hypocrites.

Funny though, did anyone notice that one of the top-ranking Al Quida-in-Iraq figures was recently picked up -- dressed in a Burkah??? Yup, he was a transvestite. Are you suggesting that since none of the enemy are wearing uniforms, that we shouldn't hold anyone that we may have good reason to believe is a bad guy, even though they may not have had an AK47 aimed at us at that very moment???

Techweenie -- You may have forgotten that Israel would have been overrun by that very same Arab world at least 2 or 3 times already (not counting the original war during which the Arab world tried to wipe the nation out before it had even come into being) if it weren't for the support of the US. The "modern" islamic world (which ironically is in many respect far more reactionary then the islamic world of 1000 years ago) has had this thing about wiping the Jewish culture out of the mid-east. To me that attitude certainly smacks of genocide -- which is essentially what the Islamic world's pet cause (Palestine) has been advocating for decades.

[island911]

Originally posted by jluetjen
... Are you suggesting that since none of the enemy are wearing uniforms, that we shouldn't hold anyone that we may have good reason to believe is a bad guy,...

I think that you really are on to the crux of much of the Lib's whining.

They really are 'okay' with us killing military. (they don't like any military) But as soon as there is "no uniform" they really want us to have the courts step in. . . and be "fair"

--a deadly mistake. (but they don't get that)

[kach22i]

Originally posted by island911
But as soon as there is "no uniform" they really want us to have the courts step in. . . and be "fair"

Fair, and quick!

Don't forget quick.

Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

Within days after the bombing, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were arrested for their role in the bombing. Investigators determined that McVeigh and Nichols were sympathizers of an anti-government militia movement and that that their motive was to avenge the government's handling of the Waco and Ruby Ridge incidents.

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
Remember the enemy wants to remove your head not change your mind. He believes God tells him this.


Jim

funny, they can say the same thing about us...

[jluetjen]

They claim that, but that's not why we're there. No one is trying to punish them for being muslims, nor even Sunni or sh'ite (which they're doing to each other!), no -- we just went in to remove a dictator -- and would rather not leave until there's a stable and representative government in place.

No matter what their propaganda says -- that's the situation.

[island911]

Originally posted by nostatic
funny, they can say the same thing about us...

Really? We have the ability to glassify the whole place, and yet we don't.

They, otoh, will use any means possible. They had hoped that they had better timing on the 9/11/01 attacks. ...they could have gotten 10's of thousands there at the WTC.

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by nostatic
funny, they can say the same thing about us...

I'm wondering if you believe, truly believe what they say ???????

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by jluetjen
They claim that, but that's not why we're there. No one is trying to punish them for being muslims, nor even Sunni or sh'ite (which they're doing to each other!), no -- we just went in to remove a dictator -- and would rather not leave until there's a stable and representative government in place.

No matter what their propaganda says -- that's the situation.

I would not dispute your assessment other than to say, we have 140,000 troops and military logical support (including bases) on the boarder of Iran, arguably the most dangerous anti-western nation on the planet.

During the cold war we put missiles and troops on the boarder of the Soviet Union. See any similarities.

[stuartj]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
I would not dispute your assessment other than to say, we have 140,000 troops and military logical support (including bases) on the boarder of Iran, arguably the most dangerous anti-western nation on the planet.

During the cold war we put missiles and troops on the boarder of the Soviet Union. See any similarities.

Yes. There is a very good docmetantry on this subject. Its called Dr Strangelove. Suggested viewing.

During the Cold War, the Soviet Union was ringed with American bases. Germany, UK, Japan, Alsaka, Greenland, Italy, Phillipines, etc ect . Imagine how relaxed they felt. But when the Soviets moved missiles to Cuba, the world stood on the brink of a nuclear exchange.

[Turbo_pro]

There are no missiles in Cuba and the Soviet Union gone.
No nuclear holocaust, not a single mushroom cloud. Perfect strategy ? no, probably not.

So what's your point? I get it, your challenge is to the success of the strategy.

Do you prefer defeat at any cost?

[nostatic]

Originally posted by Turbo_pro
I'm wondering if you believe, truly believe what they say ???????

if you get anywhere near a grammatically and/or contextually rich sentence, send up a flare please...

USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

said it before, will say it again: hubris will be the downfall of this country

[Turbo_pro]

Originally posted by nostatic
.........................said it before, will say it again: hubris will be the downfall of this country

Although I missed your previous announcements of the impending downfall of this country, my response would have been the same then as it is now, ridicules. The true peril that faces the great country of ours is autophobia [self-loathing]. It is killing our spirit, one liberal proclamation after the other.

[stuartj]

What? About half past two, I think.

[nostatic]

autophobia? Ooh...nice use of the thesaurus. Not sure about your hybrid term between ridicule and ridiculous though. Must be some local OC dialect...

[stuartj]

[Turbo_pro]

No, it's not a new dialect it's just pretense run amuck. I meant ridiculous. I tried to sound educated beyond my station. You sure put me in my place.

What I was trying to say is that self examination carried to the extreme (self-hate) is not healthy for an individual or a people.
My experience is that liberals carry the self-criticism to an unhealthy level.

BTW: I will probably misspell a word or two and even use bad grammar now and then so please accept my apologies in advance.

[nostatic]

so are you a Rennlist OT refuge?

just curious.

btw, lack of self examination is equally as dangerous.