The Moment Of Truth Has Arrived

[tabs]

About seven or eight years ago I bought a rifle that belonged to a Saddler who was a 30 year veteran of the 7th Cavalary. He was at every major engagement the 7th was involved in from the Wa****a to Wound Knee. Including being awarded the Medal of Honor for bravery at the Battle of the Little Big Horn aka Custers Last Stand. The question that always has come to mind is, was this rifle at the Battle of the LBH. While not his service carbine, there were "Big 50 Springfields" used on both sides during the Battle. Could it have possibly been picked up by him after the fight?

To that end, in the late 1980s the NPS did several Archaeological digs on the Battle site. The spent Cartridge cases that were found were matched against modern examples of likely guns that were at the battle. The testing that was done revealed 15 guns that were Forensically proven to have been at the Battle. Three of those guns were sold at auction in the late 1990s bringing apx $1M. Soon after this the NPS was deluged with requests for Rifles to be tested, they decided that if they charged $500 the requests would die down. It didn't slow the requests down, so the NPS stopped testing alltogether. This has been the state of affairs for the past seven years.

Now the principle behind the testing at the NPS has retired the situation has changed. Castings of all the found shell casing have been taken and for $250 you can have your Battle of the LBH rifle tested to see if it was present at the Battle.

So in this little Cartridge case lies the $500,000.00 question.



Was this rifle at the Battle of the LBH?

[Kevin G.]

In my mind, that's an interesting question that is of lesser importance to "What do I do with the rifle when it has proven to be a true BLBH rifle?".

If it were my decision to make, and I wasn't really strapped for cash, I would hang onto it until I left this earth. I imagine you could pick it up and hear the rattle of small arms fire and the thunder of horses at full gallop.

Dayem, the stories these old weapons could tell.

Goo luck, tabs.

[Jeff Higgins]

That looks a little short even for a .50-70 case. Can you take a clearer picture? It almost looks like a .56 Spencer or something. Inside primed? It's hard to tell.

[Joeaksa]

Hope it turns out that it was there.

If so the rifle would have found a good home!

Joe

[ckissick]

Just one problem. No one in the 7th Cavalry who was in the fight survived the Battle of Little Big Horn, which took place in 1876. Wounded Knee took place in 1890.

The gun may have been at LBG, but could not have been owned by the same man who also fought at Wounded Knee.

[svandamme]

Originally posted by Kevin G.
"What do I do with the rifle when it has proven to be a true BLBH rifle?".

sell the bugger and hit the high limit black jack table, eh tabs?

[tabs]

Dam Jeffy U are GOOD...It is a Blank Spencer Case. and it is inside primed. Thats what they use to test the firing pin mark.

The question to ask oneself is: Will the amount of money realized from the rifles sale be able to change my life style?

[Overpaid Slacker]

You gotta find out, tabs!

How airtight is the NPS' opinion? Are they unimpeachable? If they certify "yes, this cartridge matches one that was found at LBH" is there any doubt remaining that the rifle was there?

Good luck.

JP

[tabs]

Originally posted by ckissick
Just one problem. No one in the 7th Cavalry who was in the fight survived the Battle of Little Big Horn, which took place in 1876. Wounded Knee took place in 1890.

The gun may have been at LBG, but could not have been owned by the same man who also fought at Wounded Knee.

The predictabilty of srupidity can never be underestimated.

Custer with 5 Companies/Troops of the 7th went off to meet their destiny on the Greasy Grass. While the other 7 Companies/Troops fought for their lives on the bluffs over looking the LB River. All told about 260 members of the 7th were killed. Another 40 or so were wounded.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by tabs
Dam Jeffy U are GOOD...It is a Blank Spencer Case. and it is inside primed. Thats what they use to test the firing pin mark.

The question to ask oneself is: Will the amount of money realized from the rifles sale be able to change my life style?

With only a half mil extra from the rifle you might have to slow down a bit. Course it the rifle would sell for $2-3 mil then you can simply continue as you have.

Course the cigars might improve a bit... sitting on the beach in Caribbean!

[the]

Could be your ticket out of teh LV.

[tabs]

OP Firing Pin Marks on the Shell Case are like Finger Prints, no two are alike. Is that unimpeachable enough for U?

They compare found cases at the Battle site and compare to the marks on a fresh case from a suspected rifle.

[tabs]

The GREAT POSSIBILITY is that the rifle was the "Big 50 Springfield" that belonged to Captain French and was used to pop off a coupla Indians at some distance during the Defensive Fight by Sgt Ryan. This is well documented in the literature of the Battle. Captain French was cashiered from the Army several years after the Big Horn, basically for drunkeness. Nobody knows what happened to his "Big 50." I had basically thought about that previously, but when the NPS guy mentioned it...well...

There were 6 "Big 50 Springfields" proven to have been used during the Defensive Fight. The Civilian Mule Packers and Indian Scouts were known to have used them as well as Captain French. The guns and ammo were cheap and plentiful as they were Army Surplus at the time. The 50 caliber was basically the Buffalo/Big Game Cartridge of the day.

For me win lose or draw...I have a rifle that belonged to a Medal of Honor Receiptant for Bravery at the Battle, and I have been able to talk to the guys who are the absolute authorities on the subject. The icing on the cake would be to have it Forensically proven to have been at the LBH.

[Overpaid Slacker]

tabs -
I'm familiar with the "gun fingerprinting" thing -- and a vocal critic of the "gun fingerprinting" program NYS has, that's cost more than $5 billion and NOT SOLVED A SINGLE CRIME.

And a gun's fingerprint can change ... mar the ejector, bad ammo/case that nicks the breech, scarring in the barrel from carbon, etc. So if one bad round or several hundred other rounds went through your gun after it was fired at LBH, it might not look the same (or very similar).

I'm questioning more the NPS -- are they above reproach? Both in their expertise/ability and their trustworthiness? I wouldn't put it by someone to try to slip someone at NPS $100,000 to "certify" a cartridge (and therefore, by extension, a gun) if the payoff was $1MM.

JP

[pwd72s]

Here we go again...

[Jeff Higgins]

First Sgt. Ryan used his personal Sharps, not a Springfield, on the Greasy Grass. He wrote extensively about his army career in newspaper columns later in life. I can't remember offhand the caliber of Ryan's Sharps, but I believe it was the issue .45-70-500. Maybe he grabbed French's Springfield at times; I'm not sure.

The "Big 50" of yore was the .50-100, on a 2.5" case. The .50-70 Springfield, predecessor to the .45-70, was on (I believe) a 1.5" or 1.75" case. The Springfields were all .50-70's; you can't get a 2.5" case to turn the corner into the chamber; it's too long to clear the tang area. The .45-70-500, on a 2.1" case, is about the limit.

Custer himself prefered the .50-70, in a Remington Rolling Block, for his personal hunting rifle. He did a great deal of hunting during his tour out west. The Rolling Block, by the way, is also limited as far as cartridge length. The central hammer doe not go back far enough on full cock to clear anything much longer than a .45-70, unless it has been modified to do so. Because of its, and the Springfield's limitations, I would be surprised if a true "Big 50" of any kind was used by anyone in an Army detail. They would have to bring their own ammo; not likely on that kind of expedition. They would have all of the .50-70 they could use.

The "Big 50" has almost mythical status among historians and affectionados of the period. It's mere mention conjures images of buffalo, Billy Dixon at Adobe Walls, and so forth. "Fun" to shoot, too, if you are into that kind of thing. The last one I was stupid enough to light off was loaded with a 750 grain NEI bullet over 90 grains of FFg. I left more snot, slobber, and earwax on that rifle stock than I thought one man's head could hold.

[ckissick]

Originally posted by tabs
The predictabilty of srupidity can never be underestimated.

I haven't been called stupid for at least a couple of days now. Thanks for keeping me grounded. Oh, and use spell check next time you call someone stupid.

[Jeff Higgins]

You must not be married, Charlie.

[Drdogface]

Frankly I dunno how folks who were investigating LBH can say that a case they found there was actually fired in the battle. It coulda been dropped anytime later by someone hunting antelope or some such. That would throw a wrench in the whole investigation...no? ...or did I miss something somewhere.

[Jeff Higgins]

Good point, Mark. I wonder if they look for a quantity of cases in the same spot, indicating some one firing from a fixed defensive position. That might help for the Army cases. The Indians were attacking and moving much more rapidly, so theirs would be scattered more. I know there have been some .44 Henry rimfires and other civilian cases found there that have been attributed to the Indians.

I know knothing about forensics, but it seems there would have to be some sort of supporting evidence. I know the coiled copper cases were in use, for instance. Many issue shell extractors were found in addition to torn appart cases. For those of you unfamiliar with this case construction method, just picture a toilet paper tube. These early cases regularly stuck in Springfield chambers fouled with black powder. There was a tool issued to help a soldier pry them out after the extractor ripped the rim off the case. There were being rather desperately employed on the Greasy Grass that day. Those cases were phased out very shortly after that, with this battle as a major catalyst. Many historians claim this was a factor in Custer's defeat. Hell, he could have had M-16's and his arrogance still would have lost is for him, but that's another story.

So, I dunno. It has to be more than the odd case found in the grass. Didn't the Army investigate, and pick up a lot of stuff when they did? Is that where some of the known sample cases originate? My history is admittedly sketchy on that point. I'm pretty sure, unlike Gettysburg, no one is still finding souveniers there. I think the samples are quite old and well documented, but I could be wrong.