The Moment Of Truth Has Arrived

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Drdogface
Frankly I dunno how folks who were investigating LBH can say that a case they found there was actually fired in the battle. It coulda been dropped anytime later by someone hunting antelope or some such. That would throw a wrench in the whole investigation...no? ...or did I miss something somewhere.

DR,

Assume that you have not spent much time in Eastern Montana? The battle was in SE Montana, between where the current city of Billings and, well... there is just not a city SE of that location of any size until you get to Casper Wy, a distance of almost 200 miles. If you want to look it up on the map, its in the area of Hardin, Crow Agency and that neck of the woods, South East of Billings.

There is not much out there, and there is a an awful lot of it.

You are correct that there may have been a rancher or hunter who shot something in the last 100 years and dropped a cartridge that the investigators found, but its not likely. Something that was dropped on the ground 100 years ago is most likely still sitting there unless it was near civilization, as Eastern Montana is very desolate and there are not a lot of people in that neck of the woods. At last count there were less than 1 million people in the entire state.

The investigation by the parks service and other authorities that I have seen (numerous Discovery and PBS channel shows on it as well as several very long books) were very good and the detail was pretty good. The amount of land they had to cover was extensive, as Reno, Custer and Beenteen's forces were scattered all over the area. Then the battle started and confusion reigned, so they had to cover everywhere looking for evidence of the battle.

The diagrams that I have seen showing where the individual soldiers moved around (confirmed by following cartridge cases from the same weapon) during the battle were really interesting.

If you want to learn more, a good website is this one: http://www.friendslittlebighorn.com/Archeology-survey-2004.htm

Here is a photo of one of the finds at the survey of the LBH in 2005.



One of many bullets and cartridges found at the site.

Anyone interested in history would enjoy spending some time researching this period of history. The time I spend living in Montana were a joy, and things like this are a big reason.

[Drdogface]

Joe,

You are correct in that I have not spent a lot of time in that area but I have been to LBH Battlefield site. I realize that the forensic folk who investigated that area were as scientific as they could be and most likely considered my suggestion. City or not, in the following few years after the battle anyone (most likely Native American) with a pick up Trapdoor could have dropped any number of spent cases for various reasons. Like you say, though, the investigators likely looked for a pile in one area.

They do seem to know, with exceptional detail, where each trooper moved. It was and is fascinating. They surely tracked weapon movement with trooper movement...or more likely trooper movement BY weapon movement. An odd case here and there woulda been suspect.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by Drdogface
They do seem to know, with exceptional detail, where each trooper moved. It was and is fascinating. They surely tracked weapon movement with trooper movement...or more likely trooper movement BY weapon movement. An odd case here and there woulda been suspect.

You are one of the few! Its in the middle of no-where isnt it?

The PBS and Discovery specials that I saw on this showed how they tracked each cartridge and the movement of the soldier and gun by plotting chart. Very interesting and took a lot of the mystery out of the issue. There was still a lot of things left out there in the last couple of surveys, and they are still finding bones and such in the area.

You are somewhat correct on the "odd case" issue but they found quite a few of those as well. In the programs I saw these were finally decided that they were from rifles being used by indians late in the battle riding horses near or through the group of soldiers and shooting one or two shots then probably being shot themselves by the soldiers and their bodies being carried off a ways by the horse, so that the gun was used in-frequently or in various areas of the battlefield.

Joe

[Drdogface]

Joe,
The thing that really struck me when I visited there, about 4 years ago, is how damn huge that area is. For some reason ? I have thought it was about 1/3 to 1/2 that size. After seeing it's enormity Custer's arrogance took on a whole new meaning. He had more than ample opportunity to say, 'Not today' and move back. At least two of his scouts told him to boogie but actually stayed on after he released them. Some courage and dedication. What Reno got himself into was amazing but, as a dutiful junior officer, he did as ordered. I can't imagine the panic in him and his men as they fled the onslaught into the woods and back across the river. Benteen was just watching the whole thing unfold... And to think that Custer left his gattling guns behind 'because they would slow him down'. Doubt that they really would have made much difference in the outcome though.

The Battlefield is well done and very interesting. I must return..also to Gettysburg again.

[Rick Lee]

subscribing

[slodave]

I lived in Billings for a year and made two trips out to the LBH site. One was after a brush fire had swept through and cleared years of prairie grass. This allowed the NPS to go through the area and find a lot of interesting things that had been hiding for a long time. I also have a map of the battlefield dating from the late 1800's. When it is back from being framed, I will take a picture of it and post it. I really enjoyed this time period and have spent a lot of time reading about Custer and his adventures.

Tabs, I hope you do have a piece of history!

Dave

[ckissick]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
You must not be married, Charlie.

I'm married to a very nice woman who thinks I'm actually smart.

[Hugh R]

Fascinating, subscribing as well.

[Joeaksa]

A few views of the battlefield. This gives you an idea of the distances involved.



Photo of the period.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Fascinating stuff guys - thanks for sharing. I love that area of the country. LBH (haven't been yet) site just got put on my list of places to see on my next trip out that way.

[Joeaksa]

Jeff,

Montana and Wyoming are really God's country and there is nothing like them in late spring, summer and early fall. That said, I have been in Helena and seen snow falling on 1 June, so its not for the faint hearted.

Get up there during the summer and enjoy a part of our country that many never see.

Joe

[tabs]

The people who are doing the testing are the people who did the Archaeological digs in the late 80s. The fire mentioned is what gave them the impeteus to do the digs in the first place. So what i'm getting at is that i am talking to the guys who wrote the books and provided the info for those specials of the Discovery Channel.

More than a Hunter or Indians visited the site. The Army visited the site numerous times to rebury the dead etc and tourists out at the site were common even in the 19th century. So its possible that period shell casings intermingle with ones left during the battle. However serial numbers will date the mfg of a rifle and one with a later date would be excluded from participationin the battle.

The "Big 50 Springfield" is a term that describes its relationship to the smaller 45/70 cartridge. Not the more common usage to describe the 50/90. It was the Indian who had the Sharps and was shooting at the cavalary. Captain French took a coupla shots with his 50/70 Springfield and missed, Sgt Ryan took the 50/70 Springfield and hit the Indian at yardage.

Also it was determined that the Indians had roughly 300 Winchester and Henry rifles during the battle, which gave them overwhelming close in firepower advantage over the single shot Trapdoor Carbines the Cavalary was issued.

[tabs]

Originally posted by ckissick
I'm married to a very nice woman who thinks I'm actually smart.

I'm sure about the very nice part, but either you have her fooled or she is not very bright herself if she thinks your smart. Either that or she just doesn't want to hurt your feelings.

[Eric 951]

LBH is 1-1/2 hours from our hunting lease. Every year we drive past in on the way from Billings. I went to the site 2 years ago after bagging my antelope and having extra time. Standing near the Custer marker and looking down towards the river is amazing. Walking down the gravel path to the "cut" is very tranquil--along the path(and in a few instances on the path) are the stone markers of where the troopers where found--if known, their name/rank were on the marker. It is a graphic illustration of how some men fought and fell in small groupings of 3-4.
The museum at the site is alright--but there is an even better museum 2 exits down the highway--the "unofficial" musuem--which is run by a Crow couple and is attached to their souvenier/convenience store. The artifacts in that museum are amazing--both US government and Indian.
If anyone is in that area--both are must-sees(The LBH battlefield and the museum down the highway).

[Drdogface]

Darn, I never knew about the second museum. The one at LBH is just OK as you say. The road they made to come down showing the progression of the battle to the final stand is outstanding. I seem to remember at one point one Indian was able to find a long range model of a trapdoor, not just the saddle ring carbine common to cavalry, and set up a sniper point above some of the groups of troopers. He was pretty successful. Most of the Indians who were armed with rifles had 44 cal Henry rifles (lever action repeater) as opposed to the cavalry which still used the single shot Springfield trapdoor.

Some of the shell casings that were found showed signs of troopers having to pry them out of the chamber with a knife. These were made of copper, not brass, and when the rifle got hot they would often stick in the chamber and not eject. Some guys resorted to urinating on them to try to cool them down.

I think I recall that Custer's group actually was able to see the Indian encampment from some 90 miles away but still decided to have at it. The figure '90' may be off but it was a damn long ways.

This thread has convince me that I have to go back...Road Trip !!!

[Jeff Higgins]

I have a pretty good collection of the newspaper columns that Ryan wrote later in life. John Schofstal of C. Sharps Arms re-published them 10-15 years ago in his company's newsletter. In them, Ryan is very clear that he had his personal Sharps along on the expedition. The cover of Sandy Barnard's biography of Ryan has an illustration showing Ryan and French hiding behind a little mound, with Ryan up on one knee, shooting a scoped heavy barreled Sharps. I wish I could find a bigger picture on-line.

[Drdogface]

Originally posted by Jeff Higgins
I have a pretty good collection of the newspaper columns that Ryan wrote later in life. J

Jeff,
So wait a minute...where was Ryan when all the sh.t hit the fan? Your history of all this is much more complete than mine... If no one of Custer's group survived was he back with Benteen? Nice pic and neat sounding book. Available thru C. Sharps?

I emailed parts of this thread to a shootin' bud that was with me when we visited the site about four years ago. Some of his friends went more recently and said that one day private tours are available...said they had a Crow lady/hist. prof. leading them. Now THAT sounds very cool. I'd wanna tape it.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'm stretching my feeble memory here, Mark, but I believe you are right. Ryan was with Benteen. I'm not sure that C. Sharps carries books anymore, but I know Dave Gullo does over at Buffalo Arms. I bet he has a copy. If not, I think Amazon might have some used ones; they are pretty surprising at times.

[Drdogface]

Cool...I just shot a Creedmoor match a week or so ago....Dave was overall winner. I shop at BA all the time.

[Jeff Higgins]

Next time you see Dave, tell him I said "hello" from the PNW. He used to make it out here a couple of times a year when we still had a very active local match circut. Alas, most of the venues we used to shoot mid and long range at have long since shut it down, so I have not seen Dave in almost ten years. Dave and I used to trade match wins on a regular basis. He beat me the last time he was out this way, but I still have the trophy from the last Oregon Territorial Long Range Match ever shot. He never did win that one. Dave is "good people" for sure.