Lets See How Good U Really Are MRM
 

Two questions abut the Russo German War of 41-45.

The easy one....

What did Stalin do to save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941, and why was he able to do it?


This is the tough one and if U get this, its hats off to U MRM.

How did Reinhard Heydrichs actions indirectly help save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941?

Whew Daddy if anyone gets this U know your WW2 History.

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK MRM....time is runnin MRM.....

Google, Google, Google...Wikipedia.....I just don't think your gona be able to Google your way outa this one...MRM

Gona go smoke a cigar, be back later to gloat...

Jeez tabs, starting a thread on the what if's and other happenings which effected the eventual outcome on the eastern front ( particularly in 1941) could go on forever and yes, Sorge did it...

Here tabby, tabby . . .

http://www.turquoiseproperty.co.uk/i...-staircase.jpg

Stalin...wow! He was the man!...kicked the Nazi's ass, then ran his country in a humane and loving manner, placing the needs of the people first. Where are leaders like he was, now that we really need them?

Tabby, don't you think an unusually severe Russian winter also contributed to the defeat of Hitler's army? Or do you think it was all because of Stalin's genius?

I shouldn't really make this post...we all know that Tabby knows all. Who am I to disagree with the mistress of off topic? :rolleyes:

Well heres the answer to the easy one.

It was General winter and the exhaustion of the German troops and equipment that blunted the German drive. However it was the fresh Troops that Stalin was able to pull out of Siberia, that thwarted the Germans final effort before the gates of Moscow. He was able to do that because he had a spy in the German embassy named Sorge that told him that the Japanese were going to attack the US and that they weren't going to attack the USSR. Sorge was later caught and executed in 1944.

Thats part one....

There is NO CONJECTURE or what ifs here, simple historical fact. It all fits together like a jig saw puzzle.

Re: Lets See How Good U Really Are MRM
 

Sorry Tabs, working overseas now so could not chime in earlier...

SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich was a very interesting man. He could snow the people around him with stories that were later proven to be totally false, yet he was strong enough and powerful enough that they did not call him on it. His marriage then dismissal from the Heer (Navy) is a good example. How he got out of this one is still a mystery.

Before the war Heydrich was involved in espionage that involved, among others, pushing Stalin into purging many of his top generals, a move which really hurt him only 3 years later when Adolf invaded Russia. Heydrich was one of the German spooks who provided the information (most of it false) to Russian agents, who then passed it to Stalin who in turn purged most of the experienced generals in his army. When Hitler invaded 3 years later all of the experienced top leaders were either dead or in Siberia.

Regarding the Eastern front, Heydrich had a hand in the downfall of two powerful German Army generals. War Minister, Werner von Blomberg and Commander in Chief of the Army, Werner von Fritsch. When they were let go, Hitler took command of the Army and he had the vast experience of being a Corporal in WW1, so it was the blind leading the blind here. The Eastern Front followed and without proper leadership it was doomed from the beginning. Yes the winter did have a large part to do with it but both sides had to work with the winter. At least the Ruskies were used to it.

Had Hitler not invaded Russia they would eventually have eventually taken England and the world as we know it would be greatly different.

Heydrich was a man of many talents. Even though he was far too old for this type of thing, he was also a pilot and flew a BF-109 in combat on the Eastern Front when time permitted. No one knows exactly how many missions, but he was awarded a metal that usually required at least 60 combat missions. Shot down by the Ruskies and crash landing close to German lines, he made his way back to safety but was then ordered to stop playing with fire by doing this and stopped flying over enemy occupied areas after this time.

A hated man because of his actions and viewpoints towards anyone or thing that was not Deutsch (German), Heydrich's life ended early in the war when two Czech patriots, who had trained in England with the SOE, returned home and killed him. Unfortunately Hitler killed thousands of innocent people after this and Heydrich's death only made Himmler more powerful when he took over many of his projects.

Now for more obscure WW2 facts. Without looking on google, how about "Dusko Popov" ....

Give Joey a Cigar, he all but hit the nail on the head...All those purged Russian Officers in the Gulags in Siberia were let out and put back in command of Army units. Their experience paid off at the gates of Moscow.

"Dusko" who?

If I have to make a guess..I would say Red Orchastra.

I go to sleep and you complain because I haven't responded? I am honored that Tabs has deigned to call me out. Here are the answers:

1) Stalin was able to save Moscow by denuding the Japanese front of troops and moving them by rail to the German front in one of the great logistical achievements of history. He was able to take this step because he had intelligence inside the Japanese HQ that confirmed the Japanese were not going to attack the Russians (yes, Sorge). This, combined with the early and hard winter gave Stalin what he needed to turn the tide.

2) That was a good one and kind of ironic. Heydrich organized four large SS Einsatz groups (creatively named groups A,B,C, and D) to operate inside captured Soviet territory. They had orders to kill all enemies of the state, specifically including the political commisars the communists who were supposed to be directing the Red Army, and who were responsible for screwing everything up. Freed from political control the Soviet armies performed better.

2A) Yes, Joe is correct, I wasn't sure which one you were looking for specifically.

Your missing my point tabs. Very probably neither of those events would have even come into play had Barbarosa started in May as originally planned rather than late June (postponed to invade Yugoslavia). Guderian might well have been in Moscow before the fall rains even came.

Also, had army group Centre armour not been halted and wheeled south ( in July as I recall) to trap and annhilate a large but already defeated Russian army, they probably could have driven straight into Moscow as there were essentially no Russians between them and Moscow to stop them at that time. The time lost gave Stalin time to start preparing for the defense of Moscow. A great tactical victory but strategically a bad move?

A very complex issue is it not ??

I'm not going to Google any of this, but IIRC, Germany invaded Russia in June of '41, well before Japan attacked the US. And IIRC, Sorge told Stalin Germany planned to invade Russia, but Stalin refused to believe him and had him recalled and executed - not exactly genius on Stalin's part. And IIRC, Hitler decided to stop at the gates of Moscow and Lenningrad to divert his troops south toward Stalingrad on the way to securing the Caucases oil fields. Basically, Hitler's and Stalin's own haphazzard screw ups created this mess. I don't recall Heydrich having much to do with it, but I could be wrong.

FWIW, when I went to Prague in 1990, I found my way to Lidice, the village that was totally wiped off the map as reprisal for Heydrich's assassination. Very moving trip.

Boy oh Boy..I can tell you, you ain't never gona be one of my life lines...and U were still on this Board when I posted the Thread...your handle was listed at the bottm.

Anyway..Sorge was a German Reporter in the German Embassy in Toyko not in the Japanese High Command.

Sorge was caught by the Japanese for spying and executed in 1944, and was not recalled by Stalin and executed...how dumb.


Now EXACTLY how were those Political Commisars that the Einstaz Gruppen were eliminating supposed to be directing the Red Army from behind German Lines??? Through out the war there were Political Officers with the Red Army. U forget that the other job the Einstatz Gruppen was supposed to perform was the elimination of the Jews in German held territory. Actually that was there primary task, just to keep it clear.

Stalin refused to believe his own lying eyes and ears that the Germans were going to invade the USSR.

HItler moved Ost and in the first wave got to the gates of Moscow, and Leningrad. By that time due to the late start and diversion of capturing another 300,000 or so Russian Troops Winter had set in. Which blunted the allready exhausted German drive.

During the Winter of 41 and early 42 the Russians counterattacked pushing the Germans back. Hitler told them no retreat, and it worked as Goerings Luftwaffe was able to supply the German Army from the air.

Hitler then had to make a choich drive and take MOscow, which was what the Russians were prepared for. Or continue the offensive in the South to secure the industrial and resource rich South. By this time Stalin had pretty much realized he should listen to his Generals, and instead of fighting they retreated letting the Germans capture territory drawing them ever deeper into Russia where their supply lines would get over extened and the mass of troops spread out. Thus by September the German Army was on the Volga and in the Cacasus Mountains. The highwater mark of the 3rd Reich as they were also virtually at the gates of Cairo at El Alamein.

Well MRM lets ask another question.

Why was pursuing the Southern Strategy instead of taking Moscow a strategic mistake that most likily cost Germany the war? Its an amazingily simple answer.

Is tabs as pompous as this thread makes him sound, or am I missing something here?

I am even more "pompous" in person.

That can't be tabs, why just today I read for the umpteenth time how the Normandy Invasion was the turning point of the war in Europe !
:D

Well, Stalingrad was much farther away from the Reich than Moscow was and thus made the supply lines longer. The city lay on the east side of the Volga, giving the Germans a fat natural barrier to cross and the Stalingrad populace was expecting the Germans to come and had time to prepare. Aside from that, Hitler had a silly fascination with capturing the place because it was named after his nemesis. Seeing as Hitler lost about 200k troops in the battle and another 90k captured when von Paulus disregarded his orders and surrendered, I'd say Moscow might have been a better choice.

Stalingrad..now known as Volgagrad is on the West Bank of the Volga River....it is spread up and down the banks. The Germans would have done much better if they had started at the N & S end of town and worked towards the center...instead of going huse to house through the city. The German Tanks were not built for house to house street fighting.

Spot on. Hitler wanted Stalingrad worse than anything and the Ruskies threw everything they had at it.

Then when the city was lost the Russians then did a textbook pincer movement with their tanks that destroyed hundreds of Panzers and a few Tigers and ended any chance of an offensive.

NOW HERE IS THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION.

Ever hear the saying ALL Roads lead to Moscow. Well they do, it is the Road and Rail Hub of the Soviet Union. Most rail and road lines run east and west, with far fewer N and S. If the Germans had taken Moscow it would have severly impaired the Russian ability to move men and material to a crucial front in a timely manner.

Volgagrad may now span both sides of the river, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Stalingrad was on the eastern side. I haven't looked at an old map, but the old film footage showed most of the land west of the Volga to be fields with the city burning on the other side. And I know some of the footage was later staged, but when the Red Army pincers surrounded the Germans and Romanians and met up, it looked like they were out in the middle of nowhere.

BTW, if you ever want to see the German version of Saving Private Ryan, shown from a German perspective, rent Stalingrad. IIRC, the Germas actually executed some of their own for self-inflicted wounds to get on one of the evacuation planes. I knew a German guy who was there, was shot in the collar bone and made it out on the very last plane. I also knew a German who wasn't so lucky and didn't make it home from Siberia until 1952.

NOw U stepped in it Joey. Hitler was after the RESOURCES Southern Russia had to offer. Capturing Stalingrad would have cut the Volga as a supply route N & S. It only came a bit later that AH and JS got into a pissing contest over the place. Both knew its importance, and Stalin said NOT ONE STEP BACK and he meant it. Over 1M Soviets died at Stalingrad. They still turn up skeltons.

Whats the difference between a Panzer and a Tiger? Ohh and the Tiger wasn't introduced until the Spring of 1943..so I don't know how it could have been available at Stalingrad. One of the BIG reasons why the Germans didn't commence Operation Citadel until July was the fact that the new Panthers and Tigers had teething problems.

Oh and Kursk was the introduction of a Porsche vehicle known as the Elephant..or Ferdinan with its 8.8 CM gun it was a potent weapon...with one glaring problem it carried NO MACHINE GUNS to protect itself from enemy infantry. They were slow and also broke down alot. After Kursk the remaining vehicles were withdrawn, reconditioned and deployed in Italy where they were used against American Troops at Anzio in 1944 with success...I guess they didn't have to move around very much.

Operation Citadel or Kursk was the largest Tank Battle the world has ever seen. Where the Panzer Divisions slugged it out with the Russian Tank Corps that had been digging in for months. On the Southern end of the pincer the Germans nearly broke through, but the Americans & Brits landed on Sicily and the Germans had to call off the battle and withdraw a couple of Panzer divisions to help prop up Mussolini. That was the last offensive the Germans were able to accomplish on the Eastern front. While Field Marshall Manstein came up with the plan for a Spring Offensive he knew and advised against it by summer. His idea was for a fluid defense, let the Soviets attack and then cut their flanks. While building a fortified line on the Don. But AH said NO RETREAT, hold every bit of ground.

Also by the Summer of 1943 AH and his flunkys knew the war was lost. Keitel said to Guderian that on average Germany was losing 150,000 men a month with no major battles being fought, and was only able to replace 75,000 of those men a month. So they knew they were losing the war to attrition and it was only a matter of time. AH said to one of his Aides (I think thats who) that his Generals Depressed him as all they wanted to do was take him aside and tell him the war was lost. AH knew that if Germany surrendered his goose was cooked once the Holocost was found out about, so he had nothing to loose by fighting to the bitter end. It was really his only option. So U can see why he demanded no retreat, keep the enemy as far away from yourself as you can for as long as you can.

I don't know how much of a supply route the Volga could have been in those winter conditions. It must have been frozen solid for many months.

Volgagrad is in the middle of fking nowhere. Most of the city was on the West Bank the Germans never got across the river. They did come within a coupla blocks of the river in the city center though.

When the Germans lines stretched out the Romanian and Italian Armys were guarding the German 6th Armys flanks. The Russian after the freeze in November launched an attack on both flanks, easily cutting through the Italian and Romanians Armys to meet up about 75 miles west of Stalingrad.

It seemed at first that Goerings promise to supply the 6th Army might be feasible, but weather and loss of planes soon sank any hopes and things started going from bad to worse. There were several opportunities to break out, AH ordered no retreat and Paulus wouldn't disobey or take it upon himself to take the iniative to breakout. AH had ordered no retreat the previous winter and it had worked out, but this time it didn't.

Manstein was able to get the 4th Panzer Army back from the Caucauss and try an break throught to Stalingrad, I think he got to within 40 miles when his offensive stalled. The rest of the winter it was firebrigade time for Army Group Sud, fighting off one Soviet thrust after another (there was no established front line, just a gapping hole). One thing that the sacrafice of the 6th Army accomplished was being able to tie down massive amounts of Soviet troops until the end of January.

Of the 90,000 Germans who surrendered only 5000 of them ever returned to Germany by 1955. The rest had died in Soviet Prison camps. Only one man broke out from the Stalingrad Pocket and made it back to German lines. Ironically he was soon killed by a Russian Motar shell while in an Aide Station.

That leaves Spring Summer and Fall, also with ice U can drive across the river. I don't know if the Volga freezes over or not?

I must have signed out last night before I saw this post. That's too bad because it would have been fun to play. History by trivial pursuit is fun, but it is a grasp of the great sweeps of history, not the minutiae that demonstrates an knowledge and understanding of history. Still, history turns on the small details, like Hitler's obsession with Stalin's namesake city, Heine's political machinations and petty jealousies, and the great man losing his nerve or digging deeper when the crucial hour comes.

Now here's a real question that requires a grasp of history to answer. How long after Pearl Harbor did it take for the US to declare war on Germany, why did it take that long and why did the US declare war on Germany?

Easier question two: what was remarkable about Congress's decision to reauthorize the draft in 1940 and who violated every principle of a representative democracy to ensure that democracy would have the tools to survive?

The US did not declare war on Germany. Germany did so on the US as part of the Axis Treaty because the US had declared war on Japan.

Hehehe. Trick question. Yes, the US declared war on Germany because Germany declared war on it. It was a couple of days before they did it, and another day before the US declared war in return. That shows how isolationist the country was. The US hadn't decided whether to enter the European war when Hitler decided the issue for us. It is still an open question of whether we would have declared war on Germany if Hitler had decided not to declare war on us. In retrospect can you imagine any other decision? In 1941 the answer was not obvious.

So how did the US come to enter the war with a draft still in effect and who was responsible?

The Discovery channel has some good shows called "Battlefield diary's" and one discusses the Stalingrad battle very well. Anyone wanting to learn more about this should watch this one.

Tabs, yep got caught on that one. Typing late at night and tired does that!

My ex-wifes family in Berlin has a gent who was in a tank on the Eastern Front. Forget where he was captured but he was 19 or 20 when his war ended. He was interred in Siberia for 7 years by the Russians. He returned weighing around 60 kilos, skin and bone and with totally white hair... at age 27. He would not talk about it and you could tell that he was deeply effected by his time in their hands.

Now the question is why did Germany declare war on America...Breaking Treatys was nothing new for Hitler?

FDR felt he had gotten himself into the wrong war, and how was he going to get in the fight with the Germans. The Germans solved his problem for him. Churchill knew that the Japs did him a favor, and that the Allies were now going to win the war. It was all about Industrial capacity and the US more than equaled Jap and Germany put together.

No one knows why Hitler declared war on the US. Breaking treaties was nothing to him. He was not bound to attack the US because Japan attacked it. Japan was neutral with the Soviets and Hitler didn't complain. When Hitler made his speech the world was waiting with baited breath wondering what he was going to do. When he declared war Churchilll said that the war was now won because the Americans were joining the fight and that he was the happiest man on earth.

Would the US have declared war on Germany if given the chance? No one knows. All we can say is that for days after Pearl Harbor the US was at war with Japan but not Germany. And for more than two years Hitler was at war with Europe but not America. Then Hitler went and solved the dilemma for all of us. I think Hitler wanted to show the other strong men of the world, Churchill, Stalin, Roosevelt, that he was the alpha dog and this was his only chance to mix it up with them.

To quote one of my favorite authors, "Overreaching don't pay."

Overreaching surely don't pay, but that's too easy to say in retrospect. At the time Pearl Harbor happened, Hitler was still the master of Europe. He'd conquered all of it except Russia in a frighteningly short time. Czechoslovakia and Austria fell without a shot fired. Poland lasted a month, France a few weeks, Benelux a few days. Up until Stalingrad, Hitler had a very good chance at winning the war.

Another good read is Richard Harris's "Fatherland". It's a murder mystery that takes place in Berlin 1964, BUT Hitler won WWII and the Cold War is now between the US and the Reich. Sounds far-fetched. But it's really not. It came very close to happening.

Nice try but NO CIGAR FOR U.....

Hitler declared war on the USA in the mistaken belief that the Japanese would honor their Treaty and reprociate by declaring war on Russia.

However the Japanese had mixed it up with the Russians in 38 or 39 on the Manchurain Border and had come out on the short end of the stick. So the Japanese were very wary of the Russians.

The Japanese immediatily decided to surrender in 1945 once the Russians had declared war and sent their Tank Divisions slicing through the Japanese Army in Manchuria like a hot knife through butter.

The Russians got into the war against the Japs only in the last few months and only so that they could demand a share in the booty from the Japanese after the war.