Lets See How Good U Really Are MRM

tabs · 06-06-2007, 07:00 PM

Two questions abut the Russo German War of 41-45.

The easy one....

What did Stalin do to save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941, and why was he able to do it?

This is the tough one and if U get this, its hats off to U MRM.

How did Reinhard Heydrichs actions indirectly help save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941?

Whew Daddy if anyone gets this U know your WW2 History.

tabs · 06-06-2007, 07:11 PM

TICK TOCK TICK TOCK MRM....time is runnin MRM.....

tabs · 06-06-2007, 07:17 PM

Google, Google, Google...Wikipedia.....I just don't think your gona be able to Google your way outa this one...MRM

tabs · 06-06-2007, 07:25 PM

Gona go smoke a cigar, be back later to gloat...

74-911 · 08:12 PM

Jeez tabs, starting a thread on the what if's and other happenings which effected the eventual outcome on the eastern front ( particularly in 1941) could go on forever and yes, Sorge did it...

the · 06-06-2007, 07:54 PM

Here tabby, tabby . . .

Brorag · Brorag's Garage

Stalin...wow! He was the man!...kicked the Nazi's ass, then ran his country in a humane and loving manner, placing the needs of the people first. Where are leaders like he was, now that we really need them?

Tabby, don't you think an unusually severe Russian winter also contributed to the defeat of Hitler's army? Or do you think it was all because of Stalin's genius?

I shouldn't really make this post...we all know that Tabby knows all. Who am I to disagree with the mistress of off topic?

tabs · 06-06-2007, 11:19 PM

Well heres the answer to the easy one.

It was General winter and the exhaustion of the German troops and equipment that blunted the German drive. However it was the fresh Troops that Stalin was able to pull out of Siberia, that thwarted the Germans final effort before the gates of Moscow. He was able to do that because he had a spy in the German embassy named Sorge that told him that the Japanese were going to attack the US and that they weren't going to attack the USSR. Sorge was later caught and executed in 1944.

Thats part one....

tabs · 06-06-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 74-911
Jeez tabs, starting a thread on the what if's and other happenings which effected the eventual outcome on the eastern front ( particularly in 1941) could go on forever and yes, Sorge did it...

There is NO CONJECTURE or what ifs here, simple historical fact. It all fits together like a jig saw puzzle.

Joeaksa · 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tabs
Two questions abut the Russo German War of 41-45.

The easy one....

What did Stalin do to save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941, and why was he able to do it?

This is the tough one and if U get this, its hats off to U MRM.

How did Reinhard Heydrichs actions indirectly help save Moscow from the Germans in Nov-Dec 1941?

Whew Daddy if anyone gets this U know your WW2 History.

Sorry Tabs, working overseas now so could not chime in earlier...

SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich was a very interesting man. He could snow the people around him with stories that were later proven to be totally false, yet he was strong enough and powerful enough that they did not call him on it. His marriage then dismissal from the Heer (Navy) is a good example. How he got out of this one is still a mystery.

Before the war Heydrich was involved in espionage that involved, among others, pushing Stalin into purging many of his top generals, a move which really hurt him only 3 years later when Adolf invaded Russia. Heydrich was one of the German spooks who provided the information (most of it false) to Russian agents, who then passed it to Stalin who in turn purged most of the experienced generals in his army. When Hitler invaded 3 years later all of the experienced top leaders were either dead or in Siberia.

Regarding the Eastern front, Heydrich had a hand in the downfall of two powerful German Army generals. War Minister, Werner von Blomberg and Commander in Chief of the Army, Werner von Fritsch. When they were let go, Hitler took command of the Army and he had the vast experience of being a Corporal in WW1, so it was the blind leading the blind here. The Eastern Front followed and without proper leadership it was doomed from the beginning. Yes the winter did have a large part to do with it but both sides had to work with the winter. At least the Ruskies were used to it.

Had Hitler not invaded Russia they would eventually have eventually taken England and the world as we know it would be greatly different.

Heydrich was a man of many talents. Even though he was far too old for this type of thing, he was also a pilot and flew a BF-109 in combat on the Eastern Front when time permitted. No one knows exactly how many missions, but he was awarded a metal that usually required at least 60 combat missions. Shot down by the Ruskies and crash landing close to German lines, he made his way back to safety but was then ordered to stop playing with fire by doing this and stopped flying over enemy occupied areas after this time.

A hated man because of his actions and viewpoints towards anyone or thing that was not Deutsch (German), Heydrich's life ended early in the war when two Czech patriots, who had trained in England with the SOE, returned home and killed him. Unfortunately Hitler killed thousands of innocent people after this and Heydrich's death only made Himmler more powerful when he took over many of his projects.

Now for more obscure WW2 facts. Without looking on google, how about "Dusko Popov" ....

tabs · 06-07-2007, 03:32 AM

Give Joey a Cigar, he all but hit the nail on the head...All those purged Russian Officers in the Gulags in Siberia were let out and put back in command of Army units. Their experience paid off at the gates of Moscow.

tabs · 06-07-2007, 03:33 AM

"Dusko" who?

tabs · 06-07-2007, 03:35 AM

If I have to make a guess..I would say Red Orchastra.

MRM · 04:16 AM

I go to sleep and you complain because I haven't responded? I am honored that Tabs has deigned to call me out. Here are the answers:

1) Stalin was able to save Moscow by denuding the Japanese front of troops and moving them by rail to the German front in one of the great logistical achievements of history. He was able to take this step because he had intelligence inside the Japanese HQ that confirmed the Japanese were not going to attack the Russians (yes, Sorge). This, combined with the early and hard winter gave Stalin what he needed to turn the tide.

2) That was a good one and kind of ironic. Heydrich organized four large SS Einsatz groups (creatively named groups A,B,C, and D) to operate inside captured Soviet territory. They had orders to kill all enemies of the state, specifically including the political commisars the communists who were supposed to be directing the Red Army, and who were responsible for screwing everything up. Freed from political control the Soviet armies performed better.

2A) Yes, Joe is correct, I wasn't sure which one you were looking for specifically.

74-911 · 06-07-2007, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tabs
There is NO CONJECTURE or what ifs here, simple historical fact. It all fits together like a jig saw puzzle.

Your missing my point tabs. Very probably neither of those events would have even come into play had Barbarosa started in May as originally planned rather than late June (postponed to invade Yugoslavia). Guderian might well have been in Moscow before the fall rains even came.

Also, had army group Centre armour not been halted and wheeled south ( in July as I recall) to trap and annhilate a large but already defeated Russian army, they probably could have driven straight into Moscow as there were essentially no Russians between them and Moscow to stop them at that time. The time lost gave Stalin time to start preparing for the defense of Moscow. A great tactical victory but strategically a bad move?

A very complex issue is it not ??

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I'm not going to Google any of this, but IIRC, Germany invaded Russia in June of '41, well before Japan attacked the US. And IIRC, Sorge told Stalin Germany planned to invade Russia, but Stalin refused to believe him and had him recalled and executed - not exactly genius on Stalin's part. And IIRC, Hitler decided to stop at the gates of Moscow and Lenningrad to divert his troops south toward Stalingrad on the way to securing the Caucases oil fields. Basically, Hitler's and Stalin's own haphazzard screw ups created this mess. I don't recall Heydrich having much to do with it, but I could be wrong.

FWIW, when I went to Prague in 1990, I found my way to Lidice, the village that was totally wiped off the map as reprisal for Heydrich's assassination. Very moving trip.

tabs · 06-07-2007, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MRM
I go to sleep and you complain because I haven't responded? I am honored that Tabs has deigned to call me out. Here are the answers:

1) Stalin was able to save Moscow by denuding the Japanese front of troops and moving them by rail to the German front in one of the great logistical achievements of history. He was able to take this step because he had intelligence inside the Japanese HQ that confirmed the Japanese were not going to attack the Russians (yes, Sorge). This, combined with the early and hard winter gave Stalin what he needed to turn the tide.

2) That was a good one and kind of ironic. Heydrich organized four large SS Einsatz groups (creatively named groups A,B,C, and D) to operate inside captured Soviet territory. They had orders to kill all enemies of the state, specifically including the political commisars the communists who were supposed to be directing the Red Army, and who were responsible for screwing everything up. Freed from political control the Soviet armies performed better.

2A) Yes, Joe is correct, I wasn't sure which one you were looking for specifically.

Boy oh Boy..I can tell you, you ain't never gona be one of my life lines...and U were still on this Board when I posted the Thread...your handle was listed at the bottm.

Anyway..Sorge was a German Reporter in the German Embassy in Toyko not in the Japanese High Command.

Sorge was caught by the Japanese for spying and executed in 1944, and was not recalled by Stalin and executed...how dumb.

Now EXACTLY how were those Political Commisars that the Einstaz Gruppen were eliminating supposed to be directing the Red Army from behind German Lines??? Through out the war there were Political Officers with the Red Army. U forget that the other job the Einstatz Gruppen was supposed to perform was the elimination of the Jews in German held territory. Actually that was there primary task, just to keep it clear.

tabs · 06-07-2007, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rick Lee
Germany invaded Russia in June of '41, well before Japan attacked the US. And IIRC, Sorge told Stalin Germany planned to invade Russia, but Stalin refused to believe him and had him recalled and executed - not exactly genius on Stalin's part. And IIRC, Hitler decided to stop at the gates of Moscow and Lenningrad to divert his troops south toward Stalingrad on the way to securing the Caucases oil fields. Basically, Hitler's and Stalin's own haphazzard screw ups created this mess. I don't recall Heydrich having much to do with it, but I could be wrong.

Stalin refused to believe his own lying eyes and ears that the Germans were going to invade the USSR.

HItler moved Ost and in the first wave got to the gates of Moscow, and Leningrad. By that time due to the late start and diversion of capturing another 300,000 or so Russian Troops Winter had set in. Which blunted the allready exhausted German drive.

During the Winter of 41 and early 42 the Russians counterattacked pushing the Germans back. Hitler told them no retreat, and it worked as Goerings Luftwaffe was able to supply the German Army from the air.

Hitler then had to make a choich drive and take MOscow, which was what the Russians were prepared for. Or continue the offensive in the South to secure the industrial and resource rich South. By this time Stalin had pretty much realized he should listen to his Generals, and instead of fighting they retreated letting the Germans capture territory drawing them ever deeper into Russia where their supply lines would get over extened and the mass of troops spread out. Thus by September the German Army was on the Volga and in the Cacasus Mountains. The highwater mark of the 3rd Reich as they were also virtually at the gates of Cairo at El Alamein.

tabs · 06-07-2007, 10:41 AM

Well MRM lets ask another question.

Why was pursuing the Southern Strategy instead of taking Moscow a strategic mistake that most likily cost Germany the war? Its an amazingily simple answer.

daepp · 06-07-2007, 11:10 AM

Is tabs as pompous as this thread makes him sound, or am I missing something here?