Meth decontamination?

[djmcmath]

Wow, too bad it's not WA, but right next door in ID. When I get a chance (ha!) I'll dig through the ID state administrative code to see if I can find similar references there. The other part (and I didn't realize this) was that it was actually sold by the bank as a reposessed home. Now I remember when I was buying my last 911, I stumbled across a deal that looked too good to be true, and it was a repo-911. Knowing it's past, I looked closer than I maybe would have looked at another car, and I found some things that made me not buy that car, not at any price. My curiosity re: the litigation route is whether some portion of the fault lies with my sister, in that they didn't exercise due diligence in checking thoroughly for meth before going in.

I talked to my Mom re: this issue; sister is on the road with no cell phone, and I won't see her until Sunday. Mom strongly disliked the idea of litigation -- I'll keep pushing on her, because it really seems like someone should have had the due diligence to figure this out before they sold it. I absolutely agree that HO insurance should cover at least a segment of the costs, but that route has been tried and the answer is, in fact, "NO."

My suspicion is that _someone_ should have checked this before selling to first-time home-buyers, newliweds, etc., but my sneaking concern is that maybe it should have been the buyer, not the seller. OTOH, banks have a lot of money, so maybe deep pockets wouldn't balk too heavily at shelling out the $10K to fix the house, as compared with whatever the cost of bad publicity could end up being.

[turbo6bar]

oh, bad. bank foreclosures are typically sold as-is, where-is, with any and all faults.

The broker/agent representing the seller (bank) will do everything up to and including lie like a stinkin' dog to get the home sold.

However, I do believe this house should have been condemned by code enforcement until it had undergone remediation. That said, unless you can bark up enough trees to get action, you're on your own. I have absolutely no experience fixing meth homes, but I believe it can be fixed. The only question is how much time and how much money.

Hugh, do you think any ozone generator will work? I bought an ozone generator last week (still hasn't arrived). I plan to use it to remove lingering smoke odor in a rental property. The seller is giving me a 30 day money back guarantee and tells me it will get rid of the smell. I have to run the machine for a day or two with no human or animal presence.

I wish your sister and family the best of luck.
Jurgen

[deanp]

I was searching "methamphetamine clean-up (name of state)" earlier on google to come up with links.

Here are some for Idaho:

Idaho 1

Idaho 2

Meth Lab Cleanup Co LLC

Idaho Housing and Finance Assoc.

[deanp]

Did they have a home inspection done? If so, what has the inspector said, is it possible that some of the fumes could come up in some sort of testing for air/water quality?

[deanp]

Jeeez, maybe I am naive, but I was never expecting this much info or this big of a problem across the country...

Structural Narcotics

[cstreit]

Presumably the last owners were the manufacturers. Suing a meth-head? Where's that gonna get though?

[djmcmath]

Not sure if an inspection was done. Like Jurgen mentioned, repo's tend to be "as-is." My suspicion (until I can reach my sister this weekend) is that the seller lied through his teeth. "Sure, we did an inspection, nothing significant discovered, of course." Or something like that.

I'm surprised as well at how many resources are available for doing the cleanup. From the look of it, the Navy's equivalent of a serious deep clean "field day" should take care of the bulk of it.

Hugh, that MN state site has a lot of good stuff. Holy cow, there's a lot of information out there. I decided to print out the entire cleanup sheet from those guys, as it looks like they've got the most detailed process for getting it right.

DeanP, that Structural Narcotics link is also excellent. While I'm surprised at how much information is out there, I'm less than surprised at the concentration of information coming out of my homeland, the pacific Northwest. Blah.

Thanks again for all the help, everyone. This looks like a feasible project now.

Dan

[Tobra]

Originally posted by deanp
[B]Jeeez, maybe I am naive, but I was never expecting this much info or this big of a problem across the country...

crystal meth is huge

[Dantilla]

A couple years ago, Pierce County, WA, had the highest number of meth labs in the nation. By far.

But that is because the county attacked the problem head-on, and devoted several sherriff officers to full-time meth duty. They were simply better at rooting them out.

As Pierce county has squeezed the meth-heads, the problem has shifted to the rural areas of the surrounding counties. Lots of woods around here for them to hide in.

[djmcmath]

Ok, time for an update: they called the professionals and asked them to come in and do an analysis of the site. Testing for meth came up negative, which was a surprise to everyone. The previous neighbors reported a lot of late night activity, blacked-out windows, and a bad smell, which is classic meth-house behaviour.

The professional (who I doubt, personally) insists that the test is 100% conclusive and that "perhaps you should sample for mold?" Except that they just went through the whole Black Mold Nightmare, and the problem remains.

I've included the entire history of the problem here to see if anyone can point this out as something else. The summary is that the house causes burning skin, swelling, chest pains, headaches, and leaves a metallic taste in the mouth. Your mileage may vary: some people have very strong reactions, others have almost none.

My sister is adamant against litigation. I think it's based on a deep distrust of all lawyers, and a fear of losing. I've urged her to at least talk to a lawyer to get a feel for what would be needed for success.

Thanks in advance for all your help.




Detailed report:
---------------------------------------------------



House Location: Rathdrum Id, 83858

House history: House repossessed in '99 from original owners. House and property trashed. Neighbors give reports of suspected drug use. Bought by most recent occupants in April of 2000.

Most recent occupants: Mom – 31, Dad – 37, boy – 2, girl – 3 (at time of writing). Two mostly outside dogs, one outside only cat.

History of Problems:

'00-'05 Musty smell noted at first entrance of house by Mom and Dad. Musty smell worsened in winter of '04 – '05. Dad, pregnant Mom and girl move out after discovering "Toxic Black Mold". Professional testing and remediation. New roof, siding, indoor paint, carpets, linoleum. All surfaces in house replaced or cleaned to professional standards. All possessions cleaned or thrown out. Mom, Dad, girl, boy move back in Fall of '05.
Spring '06 - musty smell is back.
Fall '06 - Musty smell worse. Air feels "thick", hard to breath. Mom checked out for chest pain. Nothing found. Smell centered in living room, where mold was. Mom gets burning sensation in eyes, nose, and throat when in living room.
Jan. '07 - Mom gets sinus infection that keeps coming back. General feeling of un-wellness. Stays home from activities to rest. Constant burning in nose, eyes, and throat. Diarrhea, nausea, un-natural weakness, migraine-like headaches, trouble breathing, muscle pain. Spends much of each day resting. Dad and kids seem fine.
Feb. '07 – Mom notices marked improvement in health when away from home. Suspect dog allergies. Cleans carpets. Dogs kept outside. Feel better for several days, then worse again. By end of month, begin to notice aching eyes, slight facial swelling, occasional facial itching.
March '07 - Kids become fussy. All occupants experience eye irritation, facial swelling. Mom most severe.
April 1, '07 – move in with grandma and grandpa. Symptoms slowly subside, but are not alleviated. Mom not able to enter house without painful facial swelling, itching, and return of other symptoms. Wash all items brought from house. (Items went through washing machine, or were wiped off with cloth and detergent.) Run rented ozone machine 36 hours, then open all windows, run fans. By end of month, mom able to enter house for a few minutes some days. House seems bad some days, better on others.
Early June '07 - Mom picks up boxes from local grocery store to begin packing things from house. Experiences house-like reaction from boxes while in car – facial swelling; burning nose, eyes, throat; difficulty
breathing. Spends afternoon packing washed books and clothes from house into boxes. In evening, move boxes to barn because of burning eyes. Sudden onset of chest pain, dizziness, headache, labored breathing, uncontrolled shaking. Family calls ambulance. Immediate improvement with oxygen in ambulance. 3 hours oxygen before sent home with inhaler. Nothing found to be wrong. Takes two days to recover strength.
One week later – mom tested and found to have plethora of new allergies - dogs not included. New onset of sensitivity to laundry detergent, soaps, shampoos. Leave mid June to visit other family in Pennsylvania for a month.
End of June – Grandma picks up teddy bear from floor of house and takes to Bible study to see if anyone else smells anything. One lady smells something, two others smell nothing at the time. All complain afterward of metallic taste in mouths. Fourth lady has severe immediate reaction with bad headache, hoarse voice, trouble breathing.
(djmcmath note: this seems like a really dumb idea -- "Hey everyone, smelling this teddy bear makes my daughter go to the hospital, what's it do for you?")
Next Day – Grandpa enters house looking for borrowed paint roller. Leaves because of chest pain, labored breathing, burning eyes and throat, metallic taste in mouth. Spends ½ hour in bed recovering.
Next Day – Grandma enters bedroom where family has been staying. Experiences burning eyes, nose, mouth, lips and tongue. Metallic taste. Notices strong smell on keys, shoes, other items – some washed, some forgotten. Puts plastic bags on family's items from rest of house. Items that were cleaned but still giving off smell and burning sensation; plastic dog crate, computer and/or computer table, musical instrument cases. Smell seems to be diffusing all over room and spreading to items not originally in house.
Meanwhile – family in Pennsylvania. Experiencing no symptoms except laundry detergent sensitivity and two reactions to things brought from house; Chest pain and slight swelling of eyes after playing mandolin brought from house. Swelling eyes, burning nose after opening camera case with envelopes that had been laying on dresser in house. Both items bagged and put in shed. Grandma (back in Idaho) experiences burning tongue and lips that lasts for hours after every entrance into family's room in their house. She opens window and then locks door. Contemplates clearing out all family's stuff, re-painting room, throwing out mattresses. Professional meth tester complains (after testing family's house) of stinging face where mask didn't cover.

Tests done in '07:

Early April – mold air test by Envirocheck.
May – Mold and bacteria Petri dishes, formaldehyde, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide.
June – Meth test by "Meth Lab Cleanup LLC" in Post Falls, ID.

[Superman]

I wonder if the black mold cleanup was done on wall surfaces only. If so, then perhaps ripping the sheet rock off the framing would reveal tons of black mold in the insulation.

[ed martin]

Don't know much about the laws in Washington state. Here in California the Department of Real Estate is adamant about fully disclosing any material defect that could affect the value or viability of a property. Here in California there is even a form that covers methamphetamine lab usage. Failure to disclose this information in this state is a complete liability to the seller and the absence of disclosure in regard to this material fact would have severe consequences. The fact that the problem was covered up and not disclosed I'm sure would constitute a fraudulent act. I would definitely consult a competent attorney that specializes in this matter.

Title insurance only covers matters affecting title, such as undisclosed liens, encumbrances etc., not physical issues affecting property.