My son's Eagle Project: Need construction tips

[911pcars]

My son and I need some information to get this project going in the right direction. My son's scoutmaster suggested my son build a cover for a large bell at the church where the troop meets. The bell is on a concrete pad on an elevated wall area (about 3'). The ground gradually slopes upward from there.

We're looking at building a trailhead-type structure, gable roof and two support posts. The structure will be approx. 8-9 feet high. A two post structure might be easier to construct than 4 posts because the ground around the pad is not the same height (slope).

What methods are there to ensure a two-post support will last for many years? 4x4 or 6x6? Pressure-treated wood or doug fir or ?? It should color-coordinate with the church building; so I suppose some sort of gray stain eventually. Does pressure-treated take a stain well? Redwood for the rest of the structure?



Post attachment: Should we sink the poles into a deep hole with asphalt coating, then backfill with concrete or should we pour concrete footings with a Simpson tie for the post end to sit on? A friend suggested we sink a length of 2" pipe in the concrete and bore a corresponding hole in the bottom of the post to provide reinforcement. If so, how long should this pipe be?

I know some of you are experienced carpenters and builders. Any and all suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks,
Sherwood

[BRPORSCHE]

I built somethign very similar for my eagle project. Let me see if I can find the plans and the pics from the build. I built a pergola.

[many944s]

A word of advice from my Eagle project decades ago...
Set it VERY well in the ground!

I built a map board for a trail head that showed the locations of several resting points, and numberd locations for an entire "tree trail" for local children to collect and document leaf collections.

At each of the rest points we built benches that were set fairly well in the ground (4x4 construction, with lower "T" supports buried 3 feet under surface of ground) Each with a small shelter over them. It wasn't 3 months before the board, and half of the benches were ripped out and thrown to the bottom of the ledge that the trail follows! Gotta love vandals!

Hopefully you wont have that problem at a church, but anymore I don't put it past people!

Hope it helps!
-Nick

[pwd72s]

I'm waiting for Milt to weigh in on this one...right up his alley!

[Zeke]

I love the design and in fact saw something almost exactly like the drawing in Laguna Beach. It incorporated a seat, like a shady place to stop and rest. I believe the log poles were notched in typical log construction fashion. I would sink the support poles according to the percolation factor of the area, i.e., in packed sand if the area is largely decomposed granite. I like to pour in dry concrete mix and then fill with water. This usually ensures a hard post support, but with enough flaws to provide lots of drainage. Any topical treatment to the pole bases and the structure itself are beneficial.

I'm sure the consensus will bring about more ideas. Be sure to somewhat calculate wind load and sink the poles accordingly.

[Usmellgass2?]

Congradulation to the Scout.

[911pcars]

Thanks for your input Milt. We'll have to dig around and see what's there.

BTW. The Scoutmaster said they preferred a roof similar to the building next to it. It has the typical reddish, half-circle ceramic roof tiles. I believe there are lightweight alternatives that look the same? Any recommendations?

Thanks,
Sherwood

[Porsche_monkey]

Do you have frost there? I guess not, so use 4x4 wolmanized lumber in a bored hole and fill it with fence-post cement. Go down 4'. And put cedar shingles on, and use cedar for all the upper elements.

I built a swing set that way, it lasted forever.

And it needs a cupholder.

[911pcars]

Thanks for the contributions thus far.

What is "wolmanized" lumber? I don't want to assume it's just pressure-treated. The term didn't click on Google or Wikipedia.

Sherwood

[porsche4life]

Good to see other scouts on here...i just returned from philmont and am fixing to begin work on my project...gps mapping of storm cellars in my rural community...anywho if you are wanting to do a two pole design i would suggest doing it out square tubing it will last way longer...just a suggestion im partial to steel since the sign fab shop i work in uses it for everything and i love to mig weld...if you do use metal just be sure to use good primer and paint and use several coats.

[javadog]

I built a little shelter at the side of my pool. It's bigger than what you are doing but was built in a similar style. We put in a reinforced concrete footing for each post, with a piece of 6"x6" tube steel about 30 inches long in each one, to accept a 6"x6" rough cedar post. We have to trim the cedar posts a little to fit the tube steel, and we made sure that water couldn't get between the steel and the wood. It's stout.

JR

[Tishabet]

No insights from me re: the project, but a pre-emptive congrats to your son!
-Grant the Eagle Scout

[Porsche_monkey]

Originally posted by 911pcars
Thanks for the contributions thus far.

What is "wolmanized" lumber? I don't want to assume it's just pressure-treated. The term didn't click on Google or Wikipedia.

Sherwood

Yes, it is pressure treated lumber. We used to be able to buy creosote to coat that stuff. Not any more.

If you dont have frost I dont know why you would need steel tubes or sono-tubes to contain the cement. Just use the hole itself as the form.

[911pcars]

Originally posted by Tshabet
No insights from me re: the project, but a pre-emptive congrats to your son!
-Grant the Eagle Scout

Hi Grant,
Thanks for the optimistism, but it's like AA; one day at a time. The kid is going to be 18 next year; the biological scout clock is clicking, and like many of his peer group, he underestimates the time this is going to take.

Sherwood

[911pcars]

With some normal delay due to church officials' availability, here's the latest version overlaid on the bell location. Not exactly to scale, but close.



To reduce the roof load, my son sourced some lightweight plastic "Spanish tiles" to match the tiles in the building behind. He meets with the church officials this weekend to get their approval. I'm hoping they go with redwood. While it's twice the cost, it should last longer.

If it's a go, we'll have some busy weekends ahead.

Sherwood

[Don Plumley]

That will be nice. Two post structures are tough - the load gets distributed unequally very easily. Take a straw and bend it into a U shape - see how easily forces at any angle causes the structure to collapse.

You might consider 8" round posts. If you bury the treated posts, make sure the concrete at the top slightly slopes away to help keep water out. I prefer deep concrete footings and strap anchors that are bolted to the posts - that way if/when someone or something knocks it over, you don't have to pour new footings or bury new posts that are part of the structure.

A big part of the project is how he organizes and coordinates others to help (I'm an Eagle Scout). That always seemed the hardest part of other projects I've seen.

Good luck, and Congrats Sherwood

[911pcars]

HI Don,
With the suggestions of Milt, others on the board and an architect friend who will oversee the final design, we're going to pour 3' deep concrete footings with a Simpson post anchor. In addition, the architect suggested drilling a deep hole in each 4x4 post to accept 1" pipe; 1/2 in the post, 1/2 anchored in the concrete.

There's little chance of wind shear turning this into a flying guillotine in our area and the relative lightweight structure shouldn't be a burden to the two posts (hopefully).

Thanks for your suggestions. Sounds good. I'll run them by the architect.

Hold the congrats until it's done.

Sherwood

[daepp]

Have you considered heavy gauge aluminum for your posts. From 5 feet it will look just like a 4X4 post, it's strong, and it will never rust. Sink it three feet in concrete, use a couple of aluminum braces welded to the posts at the welders shop, then all you ahve to do is build the roof on the site.

And BTW - congratulations to you and your son.

[911pcars]

Daepp,
Al. posts would be good. However, I suspect aluminum extrusions would be pretty expensive compared to wood. There are budget considerations. The church hasn't yet made any overtures to offset the material cost. My son will organize some fund-raising activities and try to get some materials donated or at a discount, but we may have to bear the balance. We'll see.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sherwood

[daepp]

Where in So Cal are you? My son is a Scout in Upland, CA