172 or Citabria?

[motion]

Pelican Pilots: I'm trying to talk myself into getting an affordable plane for buzzing around the Southwest Montana area. I have about 18 hours towards my ticket out of SNA, so I figure I need to spend another 30 hours to get my license here in MT, at around $100 an hour wet. So, that's about $3,000 in plane rental. I can pick up a decent old 172 or Citabria in the $30K-$35K range it seems. I think I'd like a high wing aircraft, as opposed to a Piper, for better views.

My main concern is to be able to dump the plane quickly if I want to. I don't want to be stuck with the thing for a year on the market. Are small planes selling these days? If I pick something up for $35K, could I sell it easily for $30K a year later if I needed to?

Also, hangar space here in Red Lodge is non-existent, unless I build a hangar, which I don't think is an attractive option. Is it OK to leave a plane tied-down through the winter, or is that a good way to kill an old plane?

And how much does an annual and typical repairs run?

Bottom line is I'd like to be able to get into a fun, small plane to get my license, possibly keep it, but be able to get out quickly if I need to. Thoughts?

[Joeaksa]

If you have no hangar space, then its a C-172. The Citab is a lot more fun and you would be a better pilot after learning to fly in that but its covered in fabric and a fabric plane outdoors in a Montana winter would not work well.

If you can find a hangar or space in one then the Citab is a much better airplane for that "neck of the woods" but storage would be needed.

Annual on a fixed gear airplane can run from $2-300 (if you do the grunt work) to over $1000 if you hand the mechanic the keys and walk away.

I did what you are talking about years ago. Bought a C-150 then C-177 and flew them to get about 500 hours then sold them. Did not lose any money and got to fly them for about free so it worked out.

[Drdogface]

Just spent a week with three pilots on a fishing trip in Northern Canada. One of them was from N. Dakota, one from Wyoming and one Wisconsin. All hanger their planes over winter. I can't answer any of your questions as I am not a pilot but wish I'd kept up my training. One had bought a 1999 Cessna 182 used for about $90K. He can get from N.Dak to the lake in about six hours ! He and a pal of his are also building a scaled down Beaver (skip the jokes) as a float plane to get into that lake more easily. I think it's called a 'Moose'

Interested in replies to your post...

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Do you like aerobatics?

[Seahawk]

Motion,

Planes are like cars, everyone is right because it is about taste and requirements.
Look at a Maule as well as the other suggestions.. You will never lose a penny on them and they have the performance you may want.
Me, I'm building a RV8 (have purchased the emmpanage kit) with my son because I want a stick, mild acro, and a low wing/high wing load set up.

[rouxroux]

Sedan vs. roadster...2-place vs 4...you're working on your ticket, got an instructor there to help you w/taildragger, stick, etc? IMHO, the 172 would be more versitile, the Citabria lots more fun.
Although I had lots of taildragger time in early on (thanks Dad), I'd probably stick with the 172 with low hours. What avionics package are you looking for? Are you wanting to use your plane to get your IFR ticket as well?

Like Joe, I'd go 172 unless you have hangar space (which would you rather leave out of a garage @ home - your "family truckster" or a ragtop?)

You'll have little trouble reselling either

[Dantilla]

I spent a couple of days in Lewistown last year waiting for thunderstorms over the Rockys to clear so I could head home.

Not a single airplane is parked outside at Lewistown. Even as just an overnighter, they offered to put my airplane in the big community hangar. Glad we did when the hail started.

I own half of the airplane. Great way to go. Hangar and maintenence costs are cut in half, and the plane gets flown enough to keep it running well. With only two of us, the airplane is flown more carefully than a big club with multiple members, and we don't have scheduling conflicts. And I was able to buy twice the airplane as if I had to pay for the whole thing myself.

You may want to look into a partnership- Preferably one that comes with a hangar.

[K9Torro]

After reading your posting carefully I would recommend the 172 for a few reasons, it is a much easier aircraft to fly , it will resale to a wider market and much quicker than the tail dragger, it will handle the outside weather better, you can take a third person or some luggage with you easier , parts are cheaper/maint is cheaper, insurance is cheaper, I could go on and on so just buy the 172 and be done with it...lol

Todd

[widgeon13]

Get the Citabria and fly it some place and leave it inside for the colder months, much more fun than a 172 and better for short grass strips. You can live w/o it for a few months of the year and in the long run it will make you a better pilot.

[Zef]

I flew both of them....the 172 is an aircraft for mother-in-law...you'll have a lot of fun with the Citabria...!

[motion]

It sounds like the 172 might be the wiser plane for the first few years at least. A Citabria looks like a whoot, but it looks like it comes with higher maintenance and running costs, plus it needs to always be hangared. Acrobatics is something that I find interesting, but probably still several years away. No interest in IFR at all. I'll be a fair-weather pilot.

Also, does anyone know off the top of their head how many hours before an overhaul is required?

Thanks for the comments and knowledge, please keep it coming.

[Joeaksa]

Richard,

Either airplane has the Lycoming engine and believe that they are 1800 to 2000 hours TBO (time between overhaul). Now, some make it to TBO, some come up short and some run 1000 hours over TBO. Just depends on care and maintenance.

Regarding your comment regarding higher maintenance and running costs. The Citab is probably a bit lower than the Cessna on costs. Can almost guarantee that the running costs on the Citab are less than a Cessna as they are lighter thus use less fuel.

Also, did you know that certain models of airplanes (the Citab and C-172 included) are certified to run on car fuel? It requires a STC (supplimental type certificate) but cuts your costs by 50% in places.

http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ApprovedAirframes.html
http://www.autofuelstc.com/autofuelstc/pa/ApprovedEngines.html

The Citab is type certified under the "Champion" name, and uses a Lyc 0-320 engine I believe. Cessna under Cessna and uses a 0-320 engine. Have used a mix of car and aviation fuel for years now with no problems.

Either airplane really needs a hangar in that part of the world, but if you had to leave it outside the Cessna might make it. A minimum for me would be wing and tail covers, which are a bear to remove in the snow and such.

Dantilla makes a good recommendation of finding one to share with someone. I would try to find someone who has a Citabria or Cessna and already in a hangar in the area. You are not using it to fly on a regular basis but for fun so that would make it easier to schedule between 2-3 owners. I own my own airplane and could just as easily share it with one or two other owners, just have not needed to fuss with it. Your starting out might be alot easier in a partnership.

If you want more detailed info or some contacts in the area, PM or email me.

[bigchillcar]

richard,
+1 on joe's suggestion to perhaps find a partner. in general, for an airplane at that price range, if you're not going to fly it at least 20 hrs. per month it may not be worth buying one, but rent instead..or going the partner route. thought you were in socal? have you moved to montana or just visit often and plan on keeping the plane up there? i recommend the high-wing plane as well for a vfr-only pilot for the visibility..and the metal hull for the climate. if you aren't planning on carrying folks that often, you might consider a c-152..they're a lot of fun and you could buy in the 20-25k range for a good one..or a c-150. i'm 6'2" and 225 and routinely train guys who weigh as much as 200 lbs. in these 2-seaters. just don't purchase more airplane than you really need.

fwiw, i was a professional jet pilot for years like joe, but left it to return to general aviation. i'm a professional flight instructor now - meaning i do it for a living, not to build flight time. if i can help with any questions you may have about your training, don't hesitate to ask. shoot me a pm, and i'd also be happy to provide my cell for questions. too bad you aren't learning in arkansas. good luck!
ryan

[goat]

Originally posted by Zef
I flew both of them....the 172 is an aircraft for mother-in-law...you'll have a lot of fun with the Citabria...!

I have flown both as well. And I agree too about the 172, which is almost boring to be in on longer flights.

[Joeaksa]

Originally posted by goat
I have flown both as well. And I agree too about the 172, which is almost boring to be in on longer flights.

It is not the most exciting airplane but remember guys, Richard is a STUDENT pilot and does not need excitement for a while. He needs to learn on something stable.

That said, given the same pilot learning on both airplanes a taildragger pilot will usually be a better "stick and rudder" pilot. Might take a couple of extra hours to learn landings but if you can fly a taildragger, you can fly anything. Same cannot be said about a spam can Cessna.

[Zef]

In the good old days...all student pilots were fabricated with taildragger aircrafts...And what pilots they are my friend...! I learned to fly in a Taylorcraft...I did not broke anything....learn to fly with a taildragger...you will be enable to fly anything thereafter....!

[motion]

Joe,

Great info about TSMOH. I had no idea you could actually go over on the time. Or under, for that matter. Interesting about the auto fuel.... can you actually get it at airports?

I think buying a share of a plane with a hangar is great advice. I'll check into it here.

Any good 172-type BBS forums out there?

Ryan,

Thanks for the advice and the offer to field questions. I have a lot to learn here so I hope you don't mind if I take you up on it.

[Joeaksa]

Richard,

Some smaller airports stock "mo-gas" as automotive gas is called. It really saves some money over 100ll. You have to remember that most of these old engines were designed in the 1950's (mine in the 1930's) and have 7.2 compression ratio's. 80 octane was the norm until it disappeared 2-4 years ago. Many guys have their own fuel tanks at the hangar or just bring a couple of 5 gallon jugs and pour your own. Its not a big deal.

You have to adhere to TBO only when the airplane is used for charter or if your insurance demands it, which rarely happens. If the engine is running fine then keep flying it. The key to long engine life is changing oil often and keeping the air filter clean. Doing an oil sample from time to time to check helps as well.

I can show you a good Citab/Aeronca Champ forum. Funny thing is that I am the SYSOP there! No idea on C-172 forums.

Site is: http://www.aeroncapilots.com/NewForum.htm Over 600 owners and members and almost 10,000 posts there, so lots of information on the planes. You want to go to the 5th catagory down, the "Post war-Champ" section. Its the plane that the started what is now the Citabria today.

Believe that there is a Citabria forum, but need to find it. The one above will get you started if you are interested in a taildragger.

[bigchillcar]

hi richard,
not at all...any time.
best,
ryan

[Normy]

8000 hours, 4000+ jet, an ATP, two Boeing type ratings [727 and 747] and 2500 hours of dual-given in PA-28's and PA-44's. Plus 250 hours in 172's.

I'd pick the Citabria! It's underpowered, but more fun than the 172.

Frankly, if I was going to pick a personal airplane...I'd probably buy a Piper Cherokee 140. I just like the way the old "Hershey-bar" wings fly.

N