"They hate us for our freedom" - Epiphany

[legion]

Originally Posted by Mule

Bush's statement is wrong. They want is dead 'cause we're infidels. Freedom doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Open your eyes while you still can.

Actually, I'd say that his statement is technically correct, but misleading. They hate us because we do not follow sharia law. For example, allowing unmarried, non-related men and women to freely mix in public. So, from our perspective, it might be hating us for our freedoms. From theirs, it is hating us because we are dirty infidels who partake in unholy actions.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by legion

Bin Laden is a tricky situation.

We could charge in, a la Barack Obama (which I find ironic because he decries doing exactly that in Iraq), and get him in a few weeks. That would also probably lead directly to the overthrow of Musharaff and the instatement of a Taliban-style government in Pakistan.

We could do what we've been doing, which is the uncomfortable compromise between keeping Musharaff in power and not getting Bin Laden--hoping some sort of opportunity will present itself.

Or we could give up.

Obviously, it would be much easier if Bin Laden was in a more stable country, but he wouldn't be hiding in a more stable country...

nice tap dance on the graves of 3000 Americans who died on Sept. 11.

[hardflex]

Nobody is safe when someone is afraid, eh' Mule....

My Brother in law, who is working in the Middle East (Dubai) has Iraqi friends who he talks to alot. They tell him insist they do not hate the American People, only the American Government for what they have and continue to do. But that truth doesn't prolong war so nobody here will spread it, least of all the Bush Administration.

[Superman]

Originally Posted by island911

Ba-dup Chiiinnnngggg

But that aside, what are the big freedoms we have lost?

--- key word "lost" ...not suspended, but lost.

You don't get freedoms back. You protect the freedom you have because when it's gone, it's gone.

Or perhaps you are expecting our gubmit to restore freedoms it previously "suspended?"

I watched our "leaders" respond to 9/11 and it quickly became clear to me that we were going to respond in precisely the way bin Laden would have preferred, ideally. We've reduced our own freedoms. We've made substantial changes in the way we do things domestically. We became increasingly scared after 9/11, and we acted scared. We quickly began clobbering Muslims, at great expense of money, international support and American lives.

According to my understanding of bin Laden's agenda, he's thinking America's response could not have been more perfect. Bush invading Iraq was beyond bin Laden's wildest hopes. I truly, honestly, believe America could not have made Al Queda happier than we did. That's what I think of this Bush guy. In fact, that's one of the kindest observations I can report. I really, really think this current "president" has done more damage to America than anyone in history. I'm not kidding. America is a laughing stock. And we are, obviously, very scared. We've adopted Dubya's blustery cowardice. We're showing the world that we're greedy, arrogant and fearful. Perfect. This is going to take decades to overcome.

[NICKG]

mule, I am far from a LIB. Are you fine with all the secret wiretapping? warrantless searchs, the AG wanting to suspend Habeas Corpus? I am not. For god sake you will need a passport to go to Canada soon? what have we become, a police state that quakes in fear od "the terrorists"? C'mon now, it doesn't bother you that schools are installing video camera surveilence? and that thwey practice and actively "lock down" when a bag is found misplaced? What a crazy world this is to see a bill board that encourages one to turn in suspicious people on my way to work everyday, is this Germany circa 1934? If you cannot see the parallels to that era, you are blind, all the signs are there.
I work with a ww2 vet, born in Germany and fled in the 30's, he fought on our side and says that this is remarkably similar to the earliest roots of WW2. I for one don't like that now people can be illegally held without charge, denied their rights and secreted away to a MILITARY tribunal. Our founding Fathers are turning over in their graves right now over the sad state of our country. In fact they would rebell against it, as they did in 1775.
This nation was founded on the beleif of INDVIDUAL RIGHTS, and this government is stealing those rights everyday and in every chance. Sadly because very few people are old enough to realize that we are voluntarilly give up rights that our fathers fathers died to win, it pains me to see it.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by hardflex

Nobody is safe when someone is afraid, eh' Mule....

My Brother in law, who is working in the Middle East (Dubai) has Iraqi friends who he talks to alot. They tell him insist they do not hate the American People, only the American Government for what they have and continue to do. But that truth doesn't prolong war so nobody here will spread it, least of all the Bush Administration.

I don't know who your BIL is talking to but I do know what the koran says. It doesn't matter what the individuals say as long as they support the groups that want to kill me, and you, and all the rest of us.

BIL's contacts 0 koran 1

Nick, the biggest issue right now is border security. I strongly disagree w/ secret wiretapping, warrant less searches, the AG wanting to suspend Habeas Corpus, as relates to American citizens. Foreigners is a different matter. Is it too much to ask to suspend immigration from terrorist nations & monitor contact with terrorist nations or individual? I don't think so.

[cool_chick]

Originally Posted by NICKG

mule, I am far from a LIB. Are you fine with all the secret wiretapping? warrantless searchs, the AG wanting to suspend Habeas Corpus? I am not. For god sake you will need a passport to go to Canada soon? what have we become, a police state that quakes in fear od "the terrorists"? C'mon now, it doesn't bother you that schools are installing video camera surveilence? and that thwey practice and actively "lock down" when a bag is found misplaced? What a crazy world this is to see a bill board that encourages one to turn in suspicious people on my way to work everyday, is this Germany circa 1934? If you cannot see the parallels to that era, you are blind, all the signs are there.
I work with a ww2 vet, born in Germany and fled in the 30's, he fought on our side and says that this is remarkably similar to the earliest roots of WW2. I for one don't like that now people can be illegally held without charge, denied their rights and secreted away to a MILITARY tribunal. Our founding Fathers are turning over in their graves right now over the sad state of our country. In fact they would rebell against it, as they did in 1775.
This nation was founded on the beleif of INDVIDUAL RIGHTS, and this government is stealing those rights everyday and in every chance. Sadly because very few people are old enough to realize that we are voluntarilly give up rights that our fathers fathers died to win, it pains me to see it.

This is by no mean a liberal position. This is a conservative opinion to the core.

[hardflex]

I asked a Muslim friend of mine ( he was from Iran) what percentage of the population were hard core Religious and agreed fully with the Religious positions of their Government. He replied "about 10% of them" . I laughed and said, "about like in the US then" and we had a good laugh about it.

Trying to say a billion Muslims are in complete lock step with the Koran and Bin Ladin is just looney tunes. It would be like saying all Christians were in Lock Step with Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or anyone who bombed an abortion clinic. Painting with such a broad brush serves no purpose other than to stir the Hate pot.

[island911]

Originally Posted by Superman

You don't get freedoms back. You protect the freedom you have because when it's gone, it's gone.

Or perhaps you are expecting our gubmit to restore freedoms it previously "suspended?"
....

Well it's not like freedoms are like taxes.

Originally Posted by Superman

. .I truly, honestly, believe America could not have made Al Queda happier ....

Well then, you are not very imaginative.

So Supe, ...in your infinite (better than Bush and w/ 20/20 hindsight) wisdom, what exactly should we have done to make AQ un-'happy'?

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by hardflex

Painting with such a broad brush serves no purpose other than to stir the Hate pot.

This is exactly what Neoconservatism is based on. it's destroying our country.

Rove's #1 objective was to create a Republican dynasty. without hate, you can't divide and conquer.

(or sell Chinese chotchke's to the masses)

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by island911

what exactly should we have done to make AQ un-'happy'?

you mean other than capture and kill OBL?

[island911]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

you mean other than capture and kill OBL?

I think we've had that one on the 'To Do' list since the Clinton years.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by island911

I think we've had that one on the 'To Do' list since the Clinton years.

so you are saying Bush is worse than Clinton. yes, I agree.

[Mule]

Originally Posted by hardflex

I asked a Muslim friend of mine ( he was from Iran) what percentage of the population were hard core Religious and agreed fully with the Religious positions of their Government. He replied "about 10% of them" . I laughed and said, "about like in the US then" and we had a good laugh about it.

Trying to say a billion Muslims are in complete lock step with the Koran and Bin Ladin is just looney tunes. It would be like saying all Christians were in Lock Step with Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, or anyone who bombed an abortion clinic. Painting with such a broad brush serves no purpose other than to stir the Hate pot.

With all due respect, your friend was either ill informed or lying to an infidel (sanctioned in the koran). The Christians are a poor analogy because there was broad based denunciation of those acts. A better analogy than the Christians would be nazi Germany. Do you think all Germans wanted world domination. No they didn't. They did go along (to varying degrees) with the leadership that did want world domination. Yes they did. Stirring the hate pot? Bombings, beheadings, and the like are like a gasoline powered blender. So I cant take the kit for that.

[NICKG]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

This is exactly what Neoconservatism is based on. it's destroying our country.

Rove's #1 objective was to create a Republican dynasty. without hate, you can't divide and conquer.

you see just sub National Socialist where Republican/Neoconservatism is..there you go.

[Mule]

All hail Algore. Or Obama can invite him for tea.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by NICKG

you see just sub National Socialist where Republican/Neoconservatism is..there you go.

Nick, can you spell this out a little more?

[RoninLB]

TV said Bush wil announce today that Iran's Republican Guard is a terrorist organization.


also progressives hate Rove because of politics. Cheney is the security guru in the WH.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RoninLB

TV said Bush wil announce today that Iran's Republican Guard is a terrorist organization.

How many millions/billions have we given them already?

[RoninLB]

exactly..

TV said Bush wants to start to cut off their businness connections worldwide. I think that means China and Russia's connections?