AWD vs. FWD w/traction control

[Porsche virgin]

I'm soliciting educated opinions.

My wife may be taking a job where she would have to drive out to NJ from Westchester (mostly highway) to work every day. She has her mind set on an AWD vehicle, mainly for the times it rains/snows. I can't blame her.

We have an Acura RSX-S, which I put snow tires on every winter. It has been fine, with only a few occasions that I had to get momentum to get up our hill or that I got stuck with the car half in the driveway and half out. But I was driving those times. She doesn't have that driving-in-snow skill set yet. (I'm not being sexist and saying she COULDN'T learn how to do it.)

I have been looking at used Subaru wagons, CR-Vs, and RAV4s in the low- to mid-teens price range with manual transmissions. (I love the fact that my automatic driving fiancée has become my stick driving wife!) At that price point, there are very few wagon/small SUVs with AWD and a manual tranny.

I'll stop rambling and get to the point: If I had a FWD car with traction control, stability control, and snow tires, how would it compare in snow capability to an AWD car without traction and stability control but with snow tires?

Thanks in advance.

[Tobra]

AWD will be superior in practically every low traction situation.

Try backing up the driveway, more weight on the drive wheels and low gearing in reverse.

[NICKG]

well it deopends on where in nj you are coming from. I live in Sussex county and did that commute for a job daily, I did ok with 4 snows on my vw, but honestly awd is a heck of a lot safer. especially if you are going down 287 in nj...it is really slick in the winter, so is the thruway to the tz bridge. I would personally advise awd if you can get it.

[stealthn]

Depends on the FWD car, weight in back, etc. Get winters for any car!

Being Canadian (and in a good snow belt) I have driven 4wd, fwd, rwd, etc., in the snow and 4wd with winters is the safest and best to the others. Now that being said fwd is really good in winter as well, the only issue is it can "track" the ruts in the road (i.e. you have the wheel fully turned and the vehicle still goes straight)

Where the biggest difference between 4wd and fwd is is on ice, launch and going uphill.

Good luck with your choice.

[flashgordon13]

The AWD is the way to go for traction. Subaru has a great system in their manual cars and will go thru any conditions but the AWD in the auto cars is not nearly as good. I drove a Mitsubishi Galant VR4 with AWD and regret selling it. I never had a worry in any snowstorm. Remeber that the braking ability doesn't change with AWD and that's where most people get into trouble. It is easy to forget that the roads are truely slippery when you can accelerate with no problems and then find yourself in a world of trouble when you try to slow down(experience talking here). The ABS in newer cars is superior to the outdated 2 channel system I had in my car but it's still important to keep in mind. If it were my wife, I would have her in an AWD car for sure.

[notfarnow]

Originally Posted by stealthn

Depends on the FWD car, weight in back, etc. Get winters for any car!

Being Canadian (and in a good snow belt) I have driven 4wd, fwd, rwd, etc., in the snow and 4wd with winters is the safest and best to the others. Now that being said fwd is really good in winter as well, the only issue is it can "track" the ruts in the road (i.e. you have the wheel fully turned and the vehicle still goes straight)

Where the biggest difference between 4wd and fwd is is on ice, launch and going uphill.

Good luck with your choice.

Agreed 100%.

Having said that, 4wd and Awd can give you a false sense of security. They give you better traction when trying to accelerate, sometimes when changing direction, but they offer no advantage in braking. Some people just don't grasp that.

I was with my uncle when he put his Jimmy into the gardrail. His reaction was "WTF? I have 4x4... that shouldn't happen!"

AWD is great though, probably better for most people that straight 4x4

For day to day driving in snow, I'll take my jetta with studded snows over my 4x4 samurai. A 4x4 tends to plow really badly when it loses traction. In the jetta I can just tug the emergency brake and get it around.

[lendaddy]

AWD systems are not equal.

The system on my old Range Rover for instance is always on always at full potential.

The system in our Envoy waits for slippage then engages. This sucks as the delay is noticeable and way too long.

I have the wife put in in four wheel drive if there is any doubt(you can select AWD/4WD/2WD). My buddy has the same vehicle (in Bravada trim) which does not offer the option of 4WD so all he gets is the AWD delayed system.

[Porsche virgin]

Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses.

"well it deopends on where in nj you are coming from"
She'll be going back and forth from roughly White Plains to Teaneck, so the GWB and Tappan Zee bridge will main routes. I know how sloppy the Tap can get, and the visibility is terrible too.

"Now that being said fwd is really good in winter as well, the only issue is it can "track" the ruts in the road (i.e. you have the wheel fully turned and the vehicle still goes straight)"
Um, I hope she never gets to experience this thrill...

"Remeber that the braking ability doesn't change with AWD and that's where most people get into trouble."
Agreed. The extra weight of the AWD system hurts handling and braking. I will have to remind the Missus of that.

"AWD systems are not equal."
This is something I knew but didn't think about enough. Thanks for bringing that up. I'm pretty darn sure that the CR-V's system is FWD and then (eventually) sends power to the rear wheels when slippage is detected. I think the Subarus are AWD all the time. I don't know about the RAV4.

[stealthn]

Another thing to think about is traction control and stability management. It's different on different vehicles, my Discovery traction control is when a when spins, ABS engages, it has nothing to do with saving a slide. Stability control/management is where it uses the ABS to slow the opposite wheel in a skid, but again this is different on vehicles, so it's something to look into. (I don't like any vehicle making decisions for me, personally).

As everyone has said the bigger the vehicle the more time to stop/skid. The most dangerous thing in winter is a woman with a 4wd SUV

[livi]

AWD is hard to beat all around.

Growing up in Sweden however (before 4wheeldrive was common) there was never any car that would get you safer and faster from A to B in snowy, icy conditions than the old front wheel drive SAAB 96. By now it is an old tired dinosaur of course, but it was really great in winter rallies. Something both Björn Waldegård and Vic Elford will attest to.

[911boost]

I have been in your situation. When we lived in MN my wife drove a Honda Accors (FWD) with snows, and I drove a Mustang GT (RWD) with snows. Neither of us ever got stuck. Of course the road clearing there is pretty good, and you just had to use your brain.

When we moved to CO, the weather can be good in the morning, and snowing by lunch, and my wife was commuting about 30 miles to work. We sold the Honda and got an AWD Volvo S60. The AWD system in the Volvos is made by Haldex, the same company that makes them for Audi. Since the S60 was a lease, and we really liked it, after we turned it in, she got an XC90. It has been good in the snow as well, but her commute is very short, albeit with two kids in the car, hence the size.

I drove a WRX for 3 years between 911's, and that thing would pretty much unstoppable. Not as good as my Tahoe in 4low, but for a car, it went anywhere.

My vote is a Subaru.

Bill

[jyl]

FWD w/ anti-lock and traction control is very good.

We have a Prius w/ thos features. Last winter, took it to Yakima WA where all roads were covered w/ glazed hard snow and many parking lots were solid ice. The pass in/out of Yakima was snow-covered as well, the grades from Yakima to surrounding towns were very icy. We had snow tires (Blizzaks).

On solid ice, I could hammer the brakes from 40 mph and stop pretty quickly in a straight line. On same ice, I could floor it from a dead stop and accelerate smoothly with total control. The tires and electronics make a big difference. Driving the pass was no issue, that was due to tires. Driving an icy, curving, grade was no problem, as I watched a 4x4 Blazer slew back and forth despite crawling at 15 mph. Didn't try violent steering maneuvers. FWD vs AWD would make no difference there.

I've driven our Range Rover in snow and ice as well, plus various RWD cars in snow.

AWD will be more helpful if you are pushing through deeper snow or climbing steeper hills. Not sure your wife's commute will involve that. AWD will not help with emergency steering, or emergency braking.

So, conclusions -

1. The most important thing she can have is snow tires. This is far more importnat that what car she drives. Real snow tires, not "all weather" tires. Blizzaks are excellent. I hear Nokians are as well. Look for soft compound, many small tread patterns, and the "snowflake in triangle symbol. Put them on an extra set of cheap steel wheels and use only in winter. Don't need studs. Lean toward a narrower tire.

2. Between FWD w/ anti-lock/traction-control and AWD w/out those aids, I would choose the former, unless you expect to be plowing through deep snow or climbing steep hils. Get better control in snow, plus better gas mileage.

3. AWD w/ anti-lock/traction control would be the best. But for most driving, not much advantage over FWD w/ same.

4. Assuming your wife is a careful, smooth driver, the biggest danger will be from other cars. Getting rear-ended, cars sliding into her lane, etc. Learn to keep a safety zone, and at lights leave enough space in front of her and keep car in gear, so can move lanes as the 1/2 pickup truck slides toward her rear end.

[Porsche virgin]

Great stuff, guys.

"The AWD system in the Volvos is made by Haldex, the same company that makes them for Audi."
I've heard really good things about the Haldex system in terms of traction, but I hear it is very heavy. Doesn't the 3400 lb. VW R32 have that system? A friend with an Audi 80 Quattro said his car was so good in the snow it was boring. I'm leery about the reliability of Audis, Volvos, etc. Yes, I supposed I'm prejudiced against the European manufacturers (except Porsches!). If I thought it was built really well, I'd love a 325xiT.

"The most important thing she can have is snow tires."
Amen. I'll get a set of snows for whatever we buy.

"AWD w/ anti-lock/traction control would be the best."
Ya know, this is harder to find than you'd expect, when it comes to the Japanese manufacturers. I don't know why. I think I read that traction/stability systems will be Federally mandated in 2012 or something.

[NICKG]

haledex awd sucks..honestly get a non haledex setup. The 80 quattro is torsen. the haldex setup is a slip system that only gets awd when some drive wheel slips. The ONLY quattro car that has haldex is the tt. the R32 also uses/d that haldex setup.
Volvo uses it too. I would drive an a6 quattro then a subbie then a volvo...you will definetly feel the difference in the volvo. it is fwd then kicks the rear in when the fronts slip, not a real awd setup.
At most subbie dealers they have a nifty video showing the awd diffeences goung up a sandy hill...this will be an eye opener. the only true awd is the subbie setup and the quattro on any audi except a TT
what you can do is buy the blue controller for the haldex cars and that will effectivly make a real 50/50 split from the 80/20 normal.
Also if you are looking at a used haldex car, MAKE SURE there is PROFF of the haldex unit being serviced every 30k miles..it needs a fluid change and it will die prematurely if not serviced regularly.

[NICKG]

here is more for you :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_(all_wheel_drive_system)

[NICKG]

here is that dealer video on the awd differences
http://www.leftlanenews.com/video-volvo-vs-subaru-awd.html

it is a very interesting watch

[NICKG]

here is the upgrade blue module for haldex..please don't buy from EIP..they are crooks.
http://www.eiptuning.com/ecomm/proddetail.php?prod=HEX-HPP

[NICKG]

another interesting awd article detailing how they stck up has 959 in it
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd_21.htm

[rammstein]

I would take front drive WITH snows over AWD without it any day.

Snow tires are essential. No reason not to- with two sets of tires, they last twice as long so it really doesn't cost more, except that you pay more upfront, and so I guess you could factor in 3-5% annual interest for the difference (this last statement is in jest).

Snow tires make you turn, stop, go better. Safer.

It blows my mind that people will shop cars and consider things like curtain airbags, stability control, ABS, and then drive around on all-purpose tires.

Snow tires rock.

[Porsche virgin]

Thanks. Great articles.

Here is the first half of the Autozine article:
http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/traction/tech_traction_4wd_2.htm

I wish the video was in English, but I get the point.