Question for the wine experts

[scottmandue]

I like red wine.. I usually get stuck on one variety and switch back and forth every few months, been on a Zinfandel kick lately, also like Pinot noir, Sirah, and Cabernet Sauvignon.
The most I have spent on a bottle of wine would be in the $50-$75 range but my daily glass of vino would be one of the Calif. reds I get at the supermarket for $10-$20.

So I am at a fancy restaurant in Newport Beach and I take a peek at the (extensive) wine list... as I flip through the voluminous listing I see a few bottles in the $1000-$3000 range.

So I ask the wine experts here, what makes a bottle of wine worth that much?
At some point there must be a diminishing point of return... can a $3000 bottle be one hundred time better than a $300 bottle?

While I have your attention what is your favorite bottle of Zinfandel, Pinot noir, Sirah, or Cabernet Sauvignon in the under $100 range?

TIA

[svandamme]

restaurant prices are not at all representative
they speculate when they buy em, and them hype the stuff so they get a good margin on the bottles, the fancier the restaurant , the more they can hype a bottle and the more ridiculous the pricing becomes... And they can do it, because there are people who go to restaurants , who don't mind paying the prices, because it makes em look like movers and shakers

just look at those Rappers who spend stupid amounts of money , splashing out on bottles of "Crystal" , coz no playa will mess around with anything else, boasting how it costs 8 grand a bottle and what not

well, that one bottle is really worth 189 Euro's if you buy em elsewhere
it's really great doing business, if you can put a 4000% profit margin , and your clientèle thinks it's awesome to throw money down the drain.

[Jeff]

My favorites for under $100 are Blackstone, Sockeye and P. Rosalez (sp?) in any flavor you mention. The first two bottles are around $10-$12 a bottle. The P. Rosalez is a friend's sister's winery in cali. and he gives them to me so I'm not sure what they cost. They sure are good though.

I am interested to hear some other's favorites so I can try something new.

[red-beard]

The prices you cite are for rarity, not for quality.

Now, if we talk about retail prices and bottles of recent vintages that are $150 (Joseph Phelps Baccus comes to mind), you are paying for a wine of exceptional quality and a small bit of rarity. To even get a bottle of Baccus, you have to be a bit "in the know" and connected with the vineyard.

Anyway, the day my wife an I were engaged, I bought 2 1994, 1.5l bottle of Joseph Phelps Cabernet, at around $400 each. We opened one that night to celebrate. My sister and her husband are out to dinner with us and he coyly asks: "Can you really tell the difference between a $20 bottle of wine and a $100 bottle of wine?". I wanted to snatch the goddam glass away from the SOAB!

[Don Plumley]

Restaurant sold rare and/or status wines, especially in the New York, Hong Kong and Newport Beach markets are reaching stratospheric levels. Way too much money out there. There will always be those that simply buy off the top of the reserve list because of the price and/or to impress. These folks will not appreciate the mechanical merits of an Aston Martin any more than a Prius. I could vent on and on.

Is a $1000 bottle better than a $100 bottle? Depends. At the restaurant, a wine at that price point is probably marked up 4X. And the $100 3X. So you need to make sure you are comparing either the retail or wholesale prices. Regardless, there are some remarkably sublime, wonderful wines that command extraordinary prices. And there are wines that have price driven up by cult demand that are no better than top shelf supermarket wines.

There are fundamentally two inputs to winemaking: Grapes and Barrels. Buy the very best grapes possible, treat them well, and pretty doggone good wine will result. But the beauty of winemaking is sometimes amazing things happen and stellar wines result, sometimes it just does not come out in glass. Some of the wineries are now so driven by scores (and repeating those scores) they have more of a chemistry experiment than winemaking going on (another rant for another time).

Speaking as a Vintner, the most important parameter is what YOU like. Period. Some appreciate the subtleties of a DRC and the price is irrelevant. Some find that a bottle of two buck chuck makes them smile just as well (my father in law, for example). As long as they are drinking wine and having a good time with friends and family, it does not matter how much the bottle costs - high or low. IMHO.

[Joeaksa]

Just spent a couple of weeks in Johannesburg. Fell in love with their wines there and they have some excellent product.

Next time you are shopping, try a bottle of South African red.

[Jims5543]

I read an article somewhere a couple of months ago that went into this exact subject.

I remember the bottom line being this.

Your better off buying in the $50-$100 range when out, because the wine stewart will have spent a lot more time picking good wines in this price range than in the $500 - $1000 range.

I cannot speak from experience here when it comes to wine. I cannot afford to spend more than $100 for a bottle.

I can speak of Champaign and say that a bottle of Dom or Crystal is totally different than a $20-$50 bottle of Champaign and tastes totally different and 100% better.

[kstar]

Anything from these guys:

Nickel and Nickel (started by the partners in Far Niente):
http://www.nickelandnickel.com/

Just one of my favorites.

Best,

Kurt

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Jim Cesiro

I can speak of Champaign and say that a bottle of Dom or Crystal is totally different than a $20-$50 bottle of Champaign and tastes totally different and 100% better.

if you can find it, try Krug Grande Cuvee, excellent champagne, priced in between Dom and Crystal...

[imcarthur]

I've been finding that with the anti-French sentiment in the last 5 years, that the French section of the wine list will often have the best bargains in US restaurants. Especially if the restaurant has older stock. Forget the big Bordeaux & Burgundy chateaux/properties & concentrate on the lesser ones. Some very good wines to be had <$100. Also cruise the Italian & Spanish sections. The Italian's aren't bargains anymore except for isolated finds but the Spanish wines often are. I don't frequent wine stores in the US that often, but I imagine that the same would be true there.

Now, are the big names worth it? Not to us common folk unless someone else is paying. Are they better? Sometimes. And sometimes not in my limited exposure.

Ian

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Just spent a couple of weeks in Johannesburg. Fell in love with their wines there and they have some excellent product.

Next time you are shopping, try a bottle of South African red.

Hmmmm... we actually have a store in town that sells nothing but south African, I will have to check it out. I have also heard Australian wines are coming up in quality, and have heard good things about Oregon and Washington state wines. Living in Cali of course I am overwhelmed with the selection from my state whenever I go to the store.

[Tobra]

When someone is willing to pay that much, that is what makes a bottle of wine worth a ton of dough.

I would tell you to buy mid price reds and put them up in a closet on their side for a bit, turning occasionally. Buy a big zin or cab with a high alcohol content and in a few years they get really nice

Jordan, Sterling, BV, man it is a long list

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Don Plumley

Restaurant sold rare and/or status wines, especially in the New York, Hong Kong and Newport Beach markets are reaching stratospheric levels. Way too much money out there. There will always be those that simply buy off the top of the reserve list because of the price and/or to impress. These folks will not appreciate the mechanical merits of an Aston Martin any more than a Prius. I could vent on and on.

Is a $1000 bottle better than a $100 bottle? Depends. At the restaurant, a wine at that price point is probably marked up 4X. And the $100 3X. So you need to make sure you are comparing either the retail or wholesale prices. Regardless, there are some remarkably sublime, wonderful wines that command extraordinary prices. And there are wines that have price driven up by cult demand that are no better than top shelf supermarket wines.

There are fundamentally two inputs to winemaking: Grapes and Barrels. Buy the very best grapes possible, treat them well, and pretty doggone good wine will result. But the beauty of winemaking is sometimes amazing things happen and stellar wines result, sometimes it just does not come out in glass. Some of the wineries are now so driven by scores (and repeating those scores) they have more of a chemistry experiment than winemaking going on (another rant for another time).

Speaking as a Vintner, the most important parameter is what YOU like. Period. Some appreciate the subtleties of a DRC and the price is irrelevant. Some find that a bottle of two buck chuck makes them smile just as well (my father in law, for example). As long as they are drinking wine and having a good time with friends and family, it does not matter how much the bottle costs - high or low. IMHO.

Great post. I agree there are stellar wines that are objectively worth huge money. But by far the largest factor in this kind of pricing in "the because I can factor".

I generally look under for something under $100 in a restaurant - but I have been out with others who wouldn't even consider a wine under $500.-. It's just a function of the readies that you have.

[Jeff]

Not to hijack but,...
Don, or anyone, could you recommend some wines (reds please) and approx. prices? Maybe as low as $25 up to $100. Or a web site that could steer me in a good direction.

Thanks.

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by C U L8R

Not to hijack but,...
Don, or anyone, could you recommend some wines (reds please) and approx. prices? Maybe as low as $25 up to $100. Or a web site that could steer me in a good direction.

Thanks.

Gotta narrow that down. You've just asked, "Can you recommend a car between $10,000 and $50,000?"

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Jordan, Sterling, BV, man it is a long list

Don't get me started,
Jeff,

Sterling, BV, Bogle, Kennwood, Kendal Jackson, Ravenswood, to name a few
All make good (not great but drinkable IMHO) reds in the $15-$50 range.

I hate to admit this but Dancing bull, Smoking loon, Estancia, can work in the $10-$15 range.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

I hate to admit this but Dancing bull, Smoking loon, Estancia, can work in the $10-$15 range.

And Aqua Velva can work nicely in the sub $3.- range.

[TyFenn]

A bit off topic (sorry) but has anyone ever sold wine wholesale? I'm wondering as I have the opportunity to do so but have no idea how to go about it or really what to do.

MikeZ? Anyone?

Thank you (and sorry for going off topic),

[Don Plumley]

Originally Posted by TyFenn

A bit off topic (sorry) but has anyone ever sold wine wholesale? I'm wondering as I have the opportunity to do so but have no idea how to go about it or really what to do.

MikeZ? Anyone?

Thank you (and sorry for going off topic),

I'm a partner in a small winery. There is little harder than getting the right license to sell Alcohol. PM me your telephone number. Too much to type.

[Steve Viegas]

There are A LOT of quality red wines out there for under $50.00. One wine that comes to mind when talking about Zinfindels is Ridge "Litton Springs". It generally goes for about $35.00 a bottle. It is made in Cupertino, CA.

$35.00 is a lot to pay for a zin, but the caliber of this wine is extraordinary.

If you want to spend $100.00 I would recommend Penfelds Bin 707. This is a cab that is about as nice as they come in this price range.

Phelps mentioned earlier, amazing wine, but again, fairly pricey.

One final not, the mark-ups in restaurants are steep; generally 2X retail. Most restaurants allow you to bring your own bottle in and pay a "corkage" fee for them to open it and allow you to drink it there. This is a great deal BUT you cannot bring a wine they have on their wine list. If you do, they will charge you full boat for it.