getting into IT management

[svandamme]

here's the deal,
just relocated from Holland to Belgium
have been doing IT for close to 12 years, resume shows nice progression
from simple IT tech to projects, to 6 years working for a leading OS/network company where i did tech support (which is more then just tech work since you're dealing with a very varied customer base, not all problems are technical, if you know what i mean)

now that i'm back in Belgium, in my region there's not a lot of big enviroments where i could find the same level of high tech high prestige i had in NL
not unless i want to work in Brussels or Antwerp which is a 2 hours commute, one way

the headhunter and agencies , have now hooked me up with 3-4 companies for IT manager gigs, ranging from small time service company that requires a head of tech dept, to an industrial meat processing facility needing a projectmanagement tech guy, a cookie factory needing an IT mgr, to an upscale design furniture company needing an IT manager who would be on the board...except for that small it service company, which is perhaps 40 heads in size ( 4-10 for the dept they want me), the others are midsize companies, ranging from 2, to 3000 employees, production companies, so i figure about 80% blue collar, 20% whitecollar, not talking multinational companies here

now i've never been a true manager in the sense that i was just doing meetings, and telling my team how and when to do the work.
I was team lead on some big projects, i was team coordinator (manager sidekick) for more operational stuff, nothing that held any responsibility in the sense of laying out the policy of the IT dept
dabbled with quality stuff, ISO certification, documentation work, setting, customer expectation , crit **** conf calls with big players, worked along side Sales reps for VAR's, and also helped setting up the contract specs for the suppliers to bid for...
done all sorts of stuff in IT, seen all the no no's, and had the pleasure of working with some great people,but i never was "the man in charge" or the one with the vision laying down the roadmap for a companies IT work...


any tips, tricks, and suggestions from the Pelican Brain Trust on how to get that Manager gig in the bag, and perhaps also on how to make the transition once i get the the job?

[stomachmonkey]

As far as getting it in the bag present your experience in a progression whose natural and logical next step is a managerial position.

How to make the transition? I read a lot of your posts. I happen to think you are a pretty smart well balanced guy with good intuition. You'll know what to do that's right for you.

[mjshira]

I think this would be easier in the US than in Europe. In Europe there seems to be this view that you have to be selected and elevated within a company you are already apart of. Being hired into a management slot with no direct management experience is tough. I'd suggest if you want to be a CTO , CISO or CIO I'd consider an MBA.

IT management is the convergence of tech and business. There are not a lot of guys who can do both. Many can do one or the other, few can do both. Large businesses need people who can do both, I'd recommend you keep that in mind as you plan for your future.

Good luck

[svandamme]

Monkey , progression in my CV, check
smart ,balanced intuitive , thx !

James, weird thing is, i wasn't actually looking for those gigs myself, like you say , i was looking for a position , usable as a stepping stone towards a mgr gig, eg, medium company , needing a senior tech position, 2nd in command so to speak

but the headhunters have forwarded my CV for these functions, and the companies in question have seen the CV, and within days responded that they wanted me to go on an interview

it's all a bit unexpected, so working myself up in the mindset, switching perspective from tech to mgmt to do these interviews

did the first 2 already, the semi project management one and the smalltime company
those went well ( no further feedback yet, so it's not something i can measure with), got the highest profile one coming up tomorrow, the one with direction position in the furniture company

i have the technical background , very diverse , that's covered
i have experience with business, in the sense that i grew up in one, i can count, understand accounting, purchasing and what not, i can understand the needs of a business and how those translate to IT needs(even those needs beyond a laptop , server and printer, such as computers integrated in production lines), and as far as people management goes, seen plenty of that on the jobs i've done, i think right now, i have enough life experience to deal with people ,(better then 6 years ago let's call it , hardened) in a fair and moral/ethical way, and to motivate them with positive reinforcement

the only thing is, i've never done any of this in one single job
so i'm slightly confused as to why these companies, especially the ones with the high profile position, would even consider me after having seen my resume

either way , i might as well go to the interview, with a good sales pitch
ask the right questions, say the right things, give it a go and see where it goes

i do well at interviews, don't get the jitters or anything, i can talk smooth without talking BS
worst case scenario, it's target practice for a later time

[livi]

Stijn,

They can not possibly find any more appropriate candidate than you. Obviously I can not vouch for your specialist skills, but we have had enough contact for me to feel completely certain your personal qualities and cerebral functioning levels far exceeds the demands any company can put forth.

Go for it!

[svandamme]

first one i did last week, industrial meat processing place (18K piggies a week) just got back to me, meeting with ceo next friday

note, this wasn't the pure it manager function, it was semi project management along side with another IT'er
it would be a good progression in terms of my CV, nice intermediate step towards full on it management

some tech work, lot of planning , dealing with contractors, guiding implementation , training the plant workers, and working along side somebody who has done that job for 2 years already, so good way to learn as well

not a glamorous place, but 90% of my time would be spent in the offices(modern) , not in the plant itself

i'm a bit surprised, they had told me they wanted another 2 weeks of checking out other candidates, and they got back in less then 3 working days...

obviously nothing signed yet, but at least things are moving along
i can deal with the remaining 2 interviews from a better position now

[cstreit]

During your interview, try to spend at least 50% pf your time talking about what your team accomplished rather than yourself. Without a lot og Mgmt experrience you might have to get creative, but as a Proj. Mgr you've done some of this already.

[svandamme]

good tip, thanks

another thing i learned from that one last week
is that technically , when discussing management
and how i as a candidate would fit in

and if they ask " why you "
that it works to say ,

" look , i can't just answer this off the ball, i know your company, but i don't know your internal IT structure and systems and way of doing things
There's no way of telling , based on a few hypothetical questions, if my way of doing things, my ideas, will be compatible with yours.
So i think there's some real benefit for both, if it would be possible to get me a tour of the place, and the IT related things of interest, so we can discuss existing infrastructure, arrangements and ideas , get to know one another,
because really , neither myself or the company would benefit either if, i get hired only to find out we have conflicting ideas a little bit further down the road"

did that last week, and i found it very rewarding , cleared up a lot of questions i had, and i think no different for them.

[HardDrive]

IT managment....shudder.

Twice the responsibility and , frequently, less pay. I hope your experience is different than my own, but I've always done better as a hired gun.

[svandamme]

it's different for me, as i don't live in a area with big multinational companies, and i don't want the commute to Brussels or Antwerp, or move and live there.

I've done my share of high end technical work, and it requires a lot of work just to keep pace with all the technologies, it never stops if you're backline for a company supporting 3rd line of your customers, i'm not (anymore) as much into the technical part of it as one should be at that technical level, i don't like consulting work, and most companies that deliver services, are just pants to work for , you're nothing but a billable asset to them, so they make sure you are on site 95% of your days, you have hardly any connection to your employer and colleagues

for the jobs in this region, It manager would fetch more then any technical job , insourced in a company, i could obviously be wrong , it might not be my kind of job, but there's only one way to find out , and that's by giving it a shot...

[mjshira]

Originally Posted by svandamme

Monkey , progression in my CV, check
smart ,balanced intuitive , thx !

James, weird thing is, i wasn't actually looking for those gigs myself, like you say , i was looking for a position , usable as a stepping stone towards a mgr gig, eg, medium company , needing a senior tech position, 2nd in command so to speak

but the headhunters have forwarded my CV for these functions, and the companies in question have seen the CV, and within days responded that they wanted me to go on an interview

it's all a bit unexpected, so working myself up in the mindset, switching perspective from tech to mgmt to do these interviews

did the first 2 already, the semi project management one and the smalltime company
those went well ( no further feedback yet, so it's not something i can measure with), got the highest profile one coming up tomorrow, the one with direction position in the furniture company

i have the technical background , very diverse , that's covered
i have experience with business, in the sense that i grew up in one, i can count, understand accounting, purchasing and what not, i can understand the needs of a business and how those translate to IT needs(even those needs beyond a laptop , server and printer, such as computers integrated in production lines), and as far as people management goes, seen plenty of that on the jobs i've done, i think right now, i have enough life experience to deal with people ,(better then 6 years ago let's call it , hardened) in a fair and moral/ethical way, and to motivate them with positive reinforcement

the only thing is, i've never done any of this in one single job
so i'm slightly confused as to why these companies, especially the ones with the high profile position, would even consider me after having seen my resume

either way , i might as well go to the interview, with a good sales pitch
ask the right questions, say the right things, give it a go and see where it goes

i do well at interviews, don't get the jitters or anything, i can talk smooth without talking BS
worst case scenario, it's target practice for a later time

if the headhunters think they can sell you into a management role, all the better. my point was more strategic: if you want to grow your career into IT managment, based on my experience, you need to place a great deal of emphasis on business principles.

I have had the chance to work with a lot of great IT people that grew into managment roles and sux'd at them. In my view, this happened because they didn't have any interest in management other than 'being the boss'.

A good IT manager knows to subordinate IT to business.

A bad IT manager tries to subordinate business to IT.

The vast majority are the later and that is why IT has such a bad track record with business, especially on 'game changing' types of issues.

[Dennis Kalma]

Hi there Stijn, I have been in the IT management/executive game for 20+ years....

A few questions.

Do you like people? Do you like people with all their quirks and habits? Do you like people who disagree with you as much as you like people who agree with you?

Basically if you do not fundamentally like people and like seeing them grow and develop then you should never go into management of any kind...because the work is getting people to do good work to get a good result in a reasonable way.

Second, are you comfortable with the difference between project management and line management? There is a big difference and many PM's do not transition well. In my mind, the difference between a PM and a LM is that the PM consumes organizational capacity while the LM creates organizational capacity. Very different and needing fairly different skills. A PM is mainly focused on delivery, while the LM focuses on fit of people and skills to problem...long term.

Last, and it has been mentioned, it is an internal service job, you have no real competition and no way to really prove yourself "good enough". It is a goal tenders position, if you do the absolute best job ever, you come out even for the business....you haven't lost anything for the company.


Oh yeah....a line one of my mentors told me that has stuck through 25 years....management is the science of making people do what you want. Leadership is the art of making people want what you want.

Happy to help....

Dennis

[mjshira]

very good advice!

mgmt = accomplishment of objectives through others

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by svandamme

any tips, tricks, and suggestions from the Pelican Brain Trust on how to get that Manager gig in the bag, and perhaps also on how to make the transition once i get the the job?

Fewer drugs. More alcohol. Makes talking the talk and walking the walk much easier.

[svandamme]

James,i'm definately one that subortinates IT to business
even as a techie, i had several headbuts with folks who wanted to sell crap just for the sake of it, while my goal was to find solutions that made sense, worked, and were ROI worthy, one more reason why i don't want to get any consulting gigs

Dennis
do i like people? well, yeah, work for me is part social life as well, i'm not into agreeing or disagreeing
i'm into getting stuff sorted out in a rational way based on facts not BS, i do prefer action over endless discussions just for the sake of it, taking the bull by the horns so to speak

PM is not my goal in life, that's for sure, i prefer dealing with people who know what they're doing, and letting them do their thing, and just make sure that they know i'll do what i can if they need me to do something for them
i'm more into the big picture then into the nitty gritty

I'm not the type that would delegate something, and then bug em every minute of the day till it's done, although i do make sure i have a fix on the situation, it's not fire and forget


goal tending, well perhaps yes, but i think part of that is translation to upper management, if you can't explain what your IT dept is doing, and what you've done, prevented, or made happen, then yeah, you have results but nobody cares..if you don't sell it, it won't be bought

I don't like the idea making people do anything, do i lead? not sure either, i think i'm more into operational stuff, solutions to problems, prevention of problems, and supporting those i work with or for... not sure how that fits in to the line of your mentor

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

IT managment....shudder.
...Snipped.

+1
If I knew then what I know now, I'd own a landscaping buisness.
Cheap labor and all the burritos you can eat...

[Dennis Kalma]

Originally Posted by svandamme

James,i'm definately one that subortinates IT to business
even as a techie, i had several headbuts with folks who wanted to sell crap just for the sake of it, while my goal was to find solutions that made sense, worked, and were ROI worthy, one more reason why i don't want to get any consulting gigs

Ah, but once you get into management you are now part of the "company" and there is a fine balance between toeing the company line and doing what is "right". Unfortunately there is a lot of grey and you need to draw the line yourself. The kind of things you run into is if your boss takes a dislike to one of your staff and tells you to fire the guy...and he/she has done nothing wrong...do you do it or not?

Dennis
do i like people? well, yeah, work for me is part social life as well, i'm not into agreeing or disagreeing

My comment about whether you like people is not social. You are more of a parental figure than anything else, you will rapidly learn that while you can get respect and honour, you cannot be everyone's friend because you need to make the tough calls and resolve the disputes...some times making winners and losers. You also need to make workable, positive relationships with people who you cannot stand or like at all, but they do good work and get good results. You can't play favourites, you can't run anything other than a meritocracy, and never forget, when you are having your a** kissed, when you look down all you see is bright and shiny faces.

The job of management is one of managing overall outcomes on many dimensions, including building a team and dealing with any holes/overcapacity in any area without causing unintended consequence.

i'm into getting stuff sorted out in a rational way based on facts not BS, i do prefer action over endless discussions just for the sake of it, taking the bull by the horns so to speak

You'll find that some times you just need to be there and listen. They will solve their problems and being direct and rational is an excellent start....until you realize that you actually cannot solve their problems, you can just lead them to a place where they have a better chance of solving the problem themselves. If you are the one who takes control of most situations you will run into a syndrome called "vicious compliance".....which means exactly what it says. If I had a Euro for every time I spent hours after work, when I had about 30 things to do, listening to the hearfelt fears and concerns of one of my staff...I'd be rich.

PM is not my goal in life, that's for sure, i prefer dealing with people who know what they're doing, and letting them do their thing, and just make sure that they know i'll do what i can if they need me to do something for them
i'm more into the big picture then into the nitty gritty

....OK, a question, pretend I am the emperor of China in the 15th century, you are my chief engineer and I come around and ask you to build me a new Great Wall of China. What is your first question?

I'm not the type that would delegate something, and then bug em every minute of the day till it's done, although i do make sure i have a fix on the situation, it's not fire and forget

You can't. You need awareness of overall result but you need to allow for individual brilliance...at the right time, you're smart. You'll learn...

goal tending, well perhaps yes, but i think part of that is translation to upper management, if you can't explain what your IT dept is doing, and what you've done, prevented, or made happen, then yeah, you have results but nobody cares..if you don't sell it, it won't be bought

I don't like the idea making people do anything, do i lead? not sure either, i think i'm more into operational stuff, solutions to problems, prevention of problems, and supporting those i work with or for... not sure how that fits in to the line of your mentor

Since we have been conversing for a while, I suspect you are deeper than that...but if I based judgement on just this statement alone I would have concern about whether you can lead or manage. The key gift that is required is that you want to lead. You believe that you know how to get better results than most people and are prepared to mold it to the way you think it ought to work....if you don't want to tell people what to do sometimes, that can be a problem.

Hope this helps....

Dennis

[svandamme]

Thanks Dennis, makes sense
although some things i just can't answer till i try it, do i want to, yes, can i, don't know
i do know that it would have been different 6 years ago, i definitely wasn't up for any of this back then,
New Great Wall of China : how high? (i'm sure it's a trick question of sorts, i could come up with how high? how much money do i have, how much workers do i have? just as well as asking how high... )

[svandamme]

well, the upscale furniture company was a dud
gave me a 10 page questionaire about all sorts of crap
what does your dad do for a living?
he's a P.I.M.P
mother?
owns a strip club
any brothers and sister? age? what line of work?
brother 1 is junior P.I.M.P, a trainee, brother 2 is a meth cooker, sister 1 is busy being preggars all the time, sister 2 was voted most promising violent criminal under the age of 14
what do you think about the danger of freedom?
well, it's true, when you get out of jail, freedom is dangerous, especially the first hours untill you get your piece back, and get some hollowpoint bullets for it
what are your ambitions regarding your social status?
now?
3 years?
10 years from now?
rubb out dad, take over the family business, then 3 years from now, expand and take over from the columbians, and the Bloods, the Crips, and the MS13, 10 years from now, i wanna be legit like Michael Corleone, and visit the pope
do you like the news?
only when they film me from my good side
how often do you watch it per week? what time?
as soon as i get out of the joint, i watch the tapes granny recorded
what are the plans for your children?
leave em running loose, if i don't see em, don't know em, and don't have to pay child support, they'll all right, anything else...not my kids, don't wanna a know about it


what kind of house do you plan to live in 10 years from now?
something like what Tony Montana had
what kind of car do you plan to drive 10 years from now
you mean cars: and the answer is, nothing less then 20 inch platinum rims, they also gotz to have a 30 inch plasma in the boot, and a gun rack
oh yeah, forgot, and NAWS!


etc etc


this is the dumbest interview i've ever done
asking things that are none of their business
then asking things that you can't explain in one sentence such as
what's better, develloping apps, or buying them
why is it better?

i mean, i'm sure you can find entire books on that subject
there's no one single good answer to that, because it fully depends on the situation and all the variables

what level of co-worker do you prefer to work with?
i like em young, hot and dumb with a C-cup



either way, this is not standard practice in Belgium and i doubt it's anywhere else
sounds like a totalitarian rule in that company, and that's definitely not my kind of environment

i wonder what kind of IT manager/director they hope to find if that's the way they conduct interviews, they don't want anybody who's assertive, or even has a mind of his own, they want a puppet on a string
it's not a serious way to conduct things, wether or not i'm Managment material is besides the question
i can't imagine hiring managers by having them fill in stupid questionairs
i would think you would want to have an open but serious conversation with potential candidates,
find out what they think, explain em what you think, etc etc...

not a childish pop quiz

half way through i got fed up and just rang the managementassistant, (i was in room by myself) told i was done, she came, she wanted to ring the bosslady, but told her thx, but no thx, this was just a waste of time, kept the papers and asked for the exis... she was hot though, reminded me of that girl in Joe Black...

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by svandamme

half way through i got fed up and just rang the managementassistant, (i was in room by myself) told i was done, .

I'll repeat my advice: less drugs and more alcohol.