*******s suck.

[slakjaw]

Sen. Amy Klobuchar, and Lori Swanson.




Good Day

[legion]

Is this about the cell-phone thing?

While based on the reports I've read it is a waste of legislative time, I don't get the outrage.

[slakjaw]

MORE GOVERNMENT NOW!

By God.

[BGCarrera32]

It's stooopid because she wants to prorate early termination fees and a "cell phone bill of rights" for consumers. I'm sorry, did you not *read* the contract before you signed up for the service? If people took responsibility for their actions and read the contracts, they wouldn't have the financial messes that they do. All a bill like this does is make the service more expensive in the long haul.

[the]

So I take it you're not one of the bidders for this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260170172469

This Democrat controlled congress is really living up to their promise.

[legion]

Originally Posted by BGCarrera32

It's stooopid because she wants to prorate early termination fees and a "cell phone bill of rights" for consumers. I'm sorry, did you not *read* the contract before you signed up for the service? If people took responsibility for their actions and read the contracts, they wouldn't have the financial messes that they do. All a bill like this does is make the service more expensive in the long haul.

I've switched cell-phone companies twice since 2001. I've never paid an early termination fee.

My little sister has switched twice as well. She's paid over $500 in early termination fees. She gets a new cell phone every year, which automatically extends her contract for two years.

I get a new cell phone when my old one breaks.

The problem is that some people think they should be able to get unlimited free cell phones and be able to switch companies whenever they want. They have no concept that the contract (and startup fees) subsidizes the cell phone price.

Sometimes I think it would be better to go back to consumers paying the actual costs of the cell phone and contract. That will surely happen in Minnesota...

[Superman]

Free Enterprise is the solution. Compare regulated industries like electric power with unregulated industries like telecommunications and insurance. Everybody loves cell phone and insurance companies, but we're all angry with our power company. Right?

My staff economist once said "Each society has had its myths. The ancients had Mount Olympus at the Gods. The middle ages had the Earth-centered universe. And modern society has 'self-regulating markets.'"

[legion]

Originally Posted by Superman

Free Enterprise is the solution. Compare regulated industries like electric power with unregulated industries like telecommunications and insurance. Everybody loves cell phone and insurance companies, but we're all angry with our power company. Right?

My staff economist once said "Each society has had its myths. The ancients had Mount Olympus at the Gods. The middle ages had the Earth-centered universe. And modern society has 'self-regulating markets.'"

You fundamentally misunderstand economics. Once again, you fail to see the difference between an efficient market (cell phones, insurance) and a monopoly (electic power). Compare apples with apples next time.

And yes, everyone in Illinois hates their power company...so do some in California.

[Moneyguy1]

Not a true monopoly. It is a government protected service area.

And I do understand economics.

Efficiency is an overused word when it comes to service industries, whether regulated or not.

[Superman]

Teach me about economics, Chris. I'll dispense with the sarcasm and make my remarks directly. It seems hard for find someone who is happy with insurance companies in general and their cell phone company in particular. And while I suppose it's possible that folks whine about their electric power company (particularly in California where deregulation was recently attempted) but I have never heard this whining. Certainly not where I live.

Electric power is immensely capital-intensive and it is truly a commodity. Your power is not better than my power. Currently, except for some heavily regulated private utilities there is no part of our electric power bill that subsidizes investors. In other words, we the public have built the electric power system and we make our own electricity thank you very much. Now, I'd like you to tell me why I should support selling these (publicly owned) generation and transmission systems to a wide array of private companies so they can sell me back my electricity at a profit. I've asked everyone I know in the electric power industry (remember, I am in the public works construction industry) to show me a reason why this would be a good idea, and have not yet received anything. So....you would be the first.

Please do, though. Please tell me why this market would be more efficient if we sell our system to private companies that will sell us back the electricity we used to generate ourselves. And then tell me why those super-efficient cell phone and insurance companies seem to get this widespread unfair reputation. I do enjoy economics and it sounds like you think you know some stuff I don't know. Part of my fundamental misunderstanding? Monopolies are pretty darned fundamental. They are bad things when the company that dominates the market is unregulated, since they can engage in all sort of price gouging, etc. But when the company is a gubmit agency, there is nowhere for that money to go. No siphon. It is, essentially, impossible to gouge. Gouging requires a siphon. Gouger and a gougee. With public agencies they are one and the same. Help me with this very fundamental misunderstanding. And again, I want to hear why it's unfair that everyone seems to be unfairly disappointed with their cell phone company, and why they seem also to be unfairly disappointed and suspicious with insurance companies.

[nostatic]

insurance is an "efficient" market?

Did you learn that from one of your über-liberal whack college professors?

[dhoward]

Publicly owned? As in everybody?
No.

Maybe where you live.
I'm an Ameren shareholder. They have become quarter-to-quarter performers.
And no, people are not happy with their service.

[Moneyguy1]

Insurance rates, for the most part, whether they be for health or housing are generally "take it or leave it", with no (or very little room) for negotiation. This is not an efficient system, except from the viewpoint of the service providers. When was the last time you talked your insurance provider into giving you a lower rate?

A few years ago, in Arizona, State Farm lost a huge mold case. My rate doubled. When I questioned it, I was told I could lower my rate by increasing my deductible. (I went with AARP/Hartford for both my cars and the house and reduced my combined bill by over $500 and got even better coverage including mold coverage)

There is a fallacy out there that, in all cases, private industry is superior to a government operation. While, in some cases, theis is true, it is not a general rule nor is it an absolute. This concept is simply a mindset of some who believe that smaller government is a goal while supporting an administration that has bloated the power of the federal government out of all recognition. Now THAT is also a generality and I freely admit it.

There is NO perfect economic system. Each system has its pluses and minuses, and none is totally evil. It is time for some of you to take off that cap of bias, start thinking for yourself and look at things a bt more objectively. That might be a struggle, but believe me, from a former idealogue, the journey is well worth the effort!!

[legion]

Supe, you don't even know what I was arguing, do you?

Power companies are a natural monopoly. The distribution systems require a huge capital investment and cannot be easily duplicated. Your house has to be hard wired to the power generation facility. Electricity is a commodity and changing which facility you get power from requires mager re-work.

Insurance and cell phones are efficient markets. (That term has nothing to do with whether the companies themselvs are efficient. ) There are many companies selling many levels of products. There are few barriers in switching from one provider to another.

To make a comparison between an efficient market and a natural monopoly is invalid. (That was my argument.) The environments in which power companies and insurance companies/cell phone providers operate in are fundamentally different in so many ways that any sort of comparison is completely meaningless.

[legion]

Originally Posted by nostatic

insurance is an "efficient" market?

Did you learn that from one of your über-liberal whack college professors?

No, I learned that from a closet-conservative economics professor.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Moneyguy1

Insurance rates, for the most part, whether they be for health or housing are generally "take it or leave it", with no (or very little room) for negotiation. This is not an efficient system, except from the viewpoint of the service providers. When was the last time you talked your insurance provider into giving you a lower rate?

A few years ago, in Arizona, State Farm lost a huge mold case. My rate doubled. When I questioned it, I was told I could lower my rate by increasing my deductible. (I went with AARP/Hartford for both my cars and the house and reduced my combined bill by over $500 and got even better coverage including mold coverage)

Bob, that is an efficient market. You were free to go to a different provider without penalty or barrier.

And, BTW, you can't negotiate with your grocery store or your power company either...

[Rick Lee]

When I switched from Verizon to Cingular, I walked into the store and asked what the early termination fee was. The lady said $175. So I signed up. Sure enough, the $175 was mention on the mile long receipt/contract they gave me. I didn't read the whole thing.

Fast forward a few mos. My new job required me to get Verizon and they said they'd pay my Cingular early termination fee, which they did. Then I got a bill for $400 from the Simply Wireless store when I had signed up with Cingular. Bill was due in two days or it would go to $500. Yup, that's the early termination fee they didn't tell me about when I asked. And I didn't notice it in the paperwork, as I had seen the $175 the lady mentioned and so I stopped reading. I have refused to pay this and they sent it to collections. Yes, technically I owe it. But it's outrageous, I already paid the early termination fee the lady told me about and I'm not paying another $500.

[Dottore]

Efficient market?

Go to business school and study the insurance industry. If there is a less efficient market - I'm not sure what it is.

In my neck of the woods they have privatized power, public transport and telephones. All are are now inefficient and expensive - when the used to be efficient and cheap.

Watch CNN for an hour. Then switch to BBC for an hour. Then tell me about the virtues of privatization.

[rammstein]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

When I switched from Verizon to Cingular, I walked into the store and asked what the early termination fee was. The lady said $175. So I signed up. Sure enough, the $175 was mention on the mile long receipt/contract they gave me. I didn't read the whole thing.

Fast forward a few mos. My new job required me to get Verizon and they said they'd pay my Cingular early termination fee, which they did. Then I got a bill for $400 from the Simply Wireless store when I had signed up with Cingular. Bill was due in two days or it would go to $500. Yup, that's the early termination fee they didn't tell me about when I asked. And I didn't notice it in the paperwork, as I had seen the $175 the lady mentioned and so I stopped reading. I have refused to pay this and they sent it to collections. Yes, technically I owe it. But it's outrageous, I already paid the early termination fee the lady told me about and I'm not paying another $500.

Huh?

Cingular hit you with the $175 (which sounds about standard). No suprise.

But the store you went through, this 'Simply Wireless' place had an additional $400 fee they charged on top of it? And this was in the contract? Did they have their own special contract different than what you would get if you went to a Cingular store?

I feel for you man, and if she told you $175, you WERE misled. Thing is, you signed the contract, and thats written record and all you have is recollection of a conversation (which I am SURE she's forgotten). I wish you the best of luck.

Moral of all this to me is that I don't sign anything anymore, and if I do I am going to read every last word of the contract. $400 tacked on is quite amazing.

[Rick Lee]

Exactly. I didn't read any farther because I saw in the contract the dollar amount she mentioned. BUT, a few pages later there is a clause that if you cancel inside of 6 mos., you owe the store a $400 early term. fee. I had never heard of such a thing. My company wasn't gonna pay that for sure. I told them they would never ever get that money from me and to go ahead and sell it to collections or write it off. My credit score is good enough that it can take the hit and recover nicely before I need to buy another house. Every mortgage I've ever done has not even tried to make me pay old parking tickets in DC. Collections like that mean nothing, other than a short term hit to the FICO.