Social Engineering - Page 2

onewhippedpuppy · 10-18-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman

Hmmm.... I guess this attempt at placing blame on Welfare for rich peoples' greed didn't work out so well. Hard to believe there are problems not caused by gubmit. Just doesn't make sense.

????? Maybe I missed something, but the only comments regarding welfare related to programs that provide more public assistance per child. More kids = more free money. It's not an uncommon phenomenon, this is certainly not the first that I have heard of it. Single lady with 6 kids, 6 different dads, on public assistance.........not all that rare of a thing. Glad my tax dollars go to a good cause.

Otherwise I agree, most of the reason for the upper class having less kids relates to money and greed. It's a shame, because there's no amount of money that could make up for the joy my kids give me.

1fastredsc · 10-18-2007, 05:25 PM

I'd like to add an alternate perspective from someone who is married and quite young. I think education might have something do to with it as well, and you can see this in some of the other well educated societies. Now i'm not necessarily generalizing to the point of saying only stupid people breed, but it seems that educated people don't want to be bothered with a family knowing that there's an entire world out there that has yet to be experienced. An example would be my wife and i, i'm 24 and she's 20, and for at least now and for some time we don't want children. Once we are done with college we both want to see the world experience everything that we can (I'd even like to try my hand at skip barber's racing school). They are the kind of things you can't do with a family realistically unless your idea of a vacation is disney world and sea world. Just another perspective............
BTW whipped, i'm really impressed man, being an AE with a family i don't know how you do it. I don't think i could pull off my ME degree in your shoes, that's for sure.

legion · 10-18-2007, 05:30 PM

I'm 29. Of the 7 couples my wife and I hang out with, 2 have vowed never to have kids. They also seem to be the people that have the most toys. Yes, welfare encourages the poor to breed, but the educated/successful have created a world where they don't want to...

Racerbvd · Racerbvd's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

I'm 29. Of the 7 couples my wife and I hang out with, 2 have vowed never to have kids. They also seem to be the people that have the most toys. Yes, welfare encourages the poor to breed, but the educated/successful have created a world where they don't want to...

If I had kids, I wouldn't have as many toys as I have.

VaSteve · 10-18-2007, 07:23 PM

I love my toys, but love my kids more. I don't know who's more excited about a saturday composed of driving the Porsche to Dunkin' Doo-nuts and then to "racetrack to watch Porsche cars"... my son or me.

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

I'm 29. Of the 7 couples my wife and I hang out with, 2 have vowed never to have kids. They also seem to be the people that have the most toys. Yes, welfare encourages the poor to breed, but the educated/successful have created a world where they don't want to...

yeah, at 29 you've been around the block too many times and experienced pretty much everything life has to offer...I now understand the sweeping pronouncements a little better.

We should all take the black pill...

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

[REFRAIN]:

that suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it's too late, and...

[REFRAIN]

The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

[REFRAIN]

The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

[REFRAIN]

The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

[REFRAIN]

A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
is it to be or not to be
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

[REFRAIN]

'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you please.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-19-2007, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1fastredsc

I'd like to add an alternate perspective from someone who is married and quite young. I think education might have something do to with it as well, and you can see this in some of the other well educated societies. Now i'm not necessarily generalizing to the point of saying only stupid people breed, but it seems that educated people don't want to be bothered with a family knowing that there's an entire world out there that has yet to be experienced. An example would be my wife and i, i'm 24 and she's 20, and for at least now and for some time we don't want children. Once we are done with college we both want to see the world experience everything that we can (I'd even like to try my hand at skip barber's racing school). They are the kind of things you can't do with a family realistically unless your idea of a vacation is disney world and sea world. Just another perspective............
BTW whipped, i'm really impressed man, being an AE with a family i don't know how you do it. I don't think i could pull off my ME degree in your shoes, that's for sure.

Thanks for the compliment. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

My wife and I are 27, with two kids. Sure, we missed out on things we could have done, but they certainly make up for it. For other young couples we know, I'd say it's pretty evenly split between kids now and waiting. Eventually, they all plan to have them. All are college educated (not that college makes you smart

).

The Gaijin · 10-19-2007, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion

I'm 29. Of the 7 couples my wife and I hang out with, 2 have vowed never to have kids. They also seem to be the people that have the most toys. Yes, welfare encourages the poor to breed, but the educated/successful have created a world where they don't want to...

I knew lots of folks who vowed the same thing when they were younger. Now they all have kids and are quite happy with them. When they give you all the reasons why - just nod and say "yeah, right...".

scottmandue · 10-19-2007, 07:08 AM

No doubt there is a certain number of "welfare moms" out there milking the system... however having dated the daughter of one such type person I would comment from personal experience that there is probably a equal number of single moms living off welfare that are not mentally capable of having a healthy relationship and or struggling with substance abuse so are in that position for no other reason.

I don't see anything wrong with delaying having children so you can see the world etc. lots of people are doing that.

Also a lot of wealthy people are having children, just look around this board at some of the very successful P-car owners with families.

Most of my friends that are middle age couples have opted not to have children to enable their lifestyle, some of them live hand to mouth and simply can't afford it... nothing wrong with that. However the few friends who do have children seem happier.

YMMV

Superman · 10-19-2007, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

????? Maybe I missed something, but the only comments regarding welfare related to programs that provide more public assistance per child.

The opening post blamed this on Welfare specifically. Yes, I noticed the additional posts that assumed this difference is caused by welfare families having more kids. But we don't even have data to back that up. Just innuendo. Specifically, it is imagined that the extra Welfare income from having additional kids is motivating poor women to have larger families. I'm sure this is a motivation for some women. How many? I dunno.

And then there is the observation that poor folks have more leisure time. And fewer bucks for outside entertainment. And perhaps alcohol is in the mix, impacting the pregnancy rate and the poor economic habits.

This is where I've got a concern. I hear all about how removing Welfare will solve these problems. I think, like Livi, that this is disguised greed. Either that or failure to understand social mechanisms by taking a closer look.

You see, when an alcoholic woman shows poor employment behavior and has several kids and no husband, the existence of Welfare might be part of the enabling resources but it's just a part of the whole picture. A minor part, frankly. Withdraw of Welfare would provide some motivation. But that alone is not likely to solve the problem. In fact, overall, to make this woman productive and free and happy will likely take MORE resources than Welfare. And if we were to withdraw Welfare and not provide those other resources, then I think we will pay in other ways and this option would be the most expensive of the three.

And the presence of kids changes things substantially. We might have loads of disdain for this lazy woman but if she has kids, then there are several gnarly questions that few people have the chutzpah to deny. Responsibility to the innocent kids with the good-for-nothing Mom. Interest in how much it's going to cost to house those kids in jail when they grow up, if better behavior is not modeled for them.

And so, I think it is not a simple problem with a simple fix. or an inexpensive one. But it is an opportunity to both take care of our neighbors in a moral sense, and also to take control of a part of society that is costing too much. You see, I believe that the proper expenditires now will cause substantial increases in these peoples' contributions to society and save a TON of money in the future. And the really frustrating thing is that Welfare is not that expensive and in the greater scheme of a federal budget, addressing the problem properly would not cost all that much money.

It's like throwing a blue tarp over your roof when it leaks. Sure, its cheap. But it's not a solution. You guys would research and find some good roofing material and make sure the installers did a proper job. Because you know the value of an investment. You know how to solve problems properly. Why wouldn't you apply that wisdom to social problems too? Greed, I think. Short sightedness.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-19-2007, 08:51 AM

Supe, there is help out there. Free help, for nearly any problem. It's getting people to reach out for it that causes the issue.

So what's your suggestion? In it's current form, welfare enables a lazy, unproductive, stagnant life. It provides no motivation for advancement in society. Being hungry, not being able to pay your bills, now that's motivation. What I want to know is, why will these people change?

At most, welfare should exist to help people get back on their feet. It should never become a lifetime income program.

Superman · 10-19-2007, 09:04 AM

As occasionally happens, you have assembled a post that is reasonable and mature. (winking smiley goes here)

I am a fan of management. And motivation. I think people are every organization's most important resource. And I think management and motivation are HUGE in terms of organizational behavior. I notice what psychologists have noticed. That punishment is a poor motivator. Sure, withdrawl of Welfare will motivate. But not only does not come short of being enough motivation, it is the wrong kind. These people live in a world of punishment. I once knew a young child that was abused. I don't know the details, but it was obvious. In playing with other kids, it looked as if this kid did not feel pain. The play he chose involved the other kids hurting him. And his facial expression never ever changed in the slightest. No pain. None. I don't think withdrawl of Welfare is going to do more than amuse most of those people. They live in the dark, cold, uncomfortable shadows of society. The depressed part. Negative.

The thing they need is hope. They need to think there is an alternative. This idea that everyone has the same shot is BS. In order for these people to be able to reach the Brass Ring, they need to be on an outside horse. Ever been on a real carousel? You're not going to get a ring, brass or otherwise, from the saddle of an inside horse. so, these people need to see a vision that nobody has shown them. the kids we scrape out of the ditch and make into journeyman construction workers.......don't know about the importance of hygiene in employment. The link. You guys think I'm crazy and you may be right, but these people DON'T KNOW some of the stuff you guys find basic.

So.....education. Job training. Lifestyle training. They need a guide. I can research job opportunities. And so....I can teach someone to do that. Before I teach them, they might not know.

A reward system needs to be in place, at least up to the point where they can see the connection between their efforts and progress.......and the natural results they will get from the World.

Superman · 10-19-2007, 09:05 AM

Oops. It was you, Matt. I thought you were Legion. Sorry. Now I see you were just teeing the ball up for me.

The Gaijin · 10-19-2007, 09:15 AM

Not to belabor the point or repeat myself, or be a meanie - but we have enough poor people in this country. Structurally poor for generations. How we lift them out of this and how we deal with this problem is one of the most difficult issues we face as a society.

If you are an "unsuccesful" immigrant - you should not get welfare, or free housing, or earned income tax credits on 7 kids or get to sponsor more realitives, or have a blind eye turned to a second and third wife on welfare or kids out of wedlock on the dole. You should go home.

Britwrench · 10-19-2007, 09:25 AM

Having kids in a relationship requires commitment from both (potential) parents. Looking at the divorce rates, children in care or being looked afer by other family members, it doesn't seem to be the most vital part of a relationship today. More like the "I want what I want" (today) attitude.

VaSteve · 10-19-2007, 10:03 AM

It is a LOT less effort to actually WORK AT A JOB than to have kids just for the welfare check. Anyone with kids (and any sense) knows this.

onewhippedpuppy · 10-19-2007, 10:21 AM

Supe, I agree with you to an extent, but I don't believe that we should provide an incentive for people to utilize public programs and better themselves. Their success should be their incentive, you cannot force/bribe people to succeed. Especially when they have the option to fall back on free money programs.

Further, these programs are largely in place. Even in a medium sized city such as Wichita, there are public and private/charitable programs to help feed, clothe, employ, and empower the poor and homeless. However, they could be better promoted, especially to those that can benefit from them.