Another P38 Lightning unearthed

Steve PH · 11-15-2007, 03:08 AM

I suspect this one will be in a much worse condition than the one found in Greenland.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/14/britain.ww2.plane.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- Sixty-five years after it ran out of gas and crash-landed on a beach in Wales, an American Lockheed P-38 Lightning fighter plane has emerged from the surf and sand where it lay buried -- a World War II relic long forgotten by the U.S. government and unknown to the British public.

During those decades, beach strollers, sunbathers and swimmers were often within a few yards of the aircraft, utterly unaware of its existence just under the sand.

Only this past summer did it suddenly reappear due to unusual conditions that caused the sands to shift and erode.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/7076941.stm

The wreck of a rare American fighter plane which is thought to have crashed during World War II has appeared on a north Wales beach.

The Lockheed-P38 Lightning has surfaced after more than 60 years because of a change in the beach levels.

Experts from the US have visited the site and confirmed there are no other examples of the aircraft in Europe.

Gwynedd Council's maritime department is to protect the site of the plane while its restoration is arranged.

Barry Davies, maritime officer for the council, said he has known about the wreckage near Harlech for several weeks.

He said the plane was found by a member of the public who was walking on the beach.

Mo_Gearhead · 11-15-2007, 03:31 AM

What I find amazing is how quickly it was covered in sand as to become un- noticed by the public? Unless it was partly submerged in the water?

I can see how this might happen in a remote desert somewhere, winds, shifting sands, no one around ...but a beach? Just tides...to swallow a large plane??

Sounds strange to me.

flashgordon13 · 11-15-2007, 03:45 AM

I don't understand why someone doesn't just build replicas. A restored aircraft has so few original parts that is really just a replica anyway. There must be a market for these old planes since a rather large portion of money will be spent restoring this find which can't be much more than a few bits of metal after all those years sitting in salt water.

onewhippedpuppy · 11-15-2007, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashgordon13

I don't understand why someone doesn't just build replicas. A restored aircraft has so few original parts that is really just a replica anyway. There must be a market for these old planes since a rather large portion of money will be spent restoring this find which can't be much more than a few bits of metal after all those years sitting in salt water.

It's the historic value of it. An aircraft that actually fought in WW2 has historic significance. A replica, even a good one, is just another cool plane.

Would you rather have a ratty Ford GT40 that won at Le Mans, or a shiny new replica?

P38 is a cool and rare plane. Hopefully it's restorable, though I can't imagine it's in very good shape.

Steve PH · 11-15-2007, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

What I find amazing is how quickly it was covered in sand as to become un- noticed by the public? Unless it was partly submerged in the water?

I can see how this might happen in a remote desert somewhere, winds, shifting sands, no one around ...but a beach? Just tides...to swallow a large plane??

Sounds strange to me.

I'm guessing here but the plane probably crashed at sea just off the beach, I assume this is one of those places were you get the opposite of coastal erosion. More and more silt, sand and rocks get washed on the beach overtime forcing the tide further out effectively re claiming land from the sea. Hence the P38 is now effectively buried on land.

Mule · 11-15-2007, 04:18 AM

Let me guess, global warming caused it's re-appearance?

frogger · 11-15-2007, 04:21 AM

I heard it was Bush's fault.

Seriously, that's a great find. I hope there's enough there to do something good with.

Mule · 11-15-2007, 05:30 AM

I think global warming probably caused the crash in the first place!

Superman · 11-15-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

What I find amazing is how quickly it was covered in sand as to become un- noticed by the public? Unless it was partly submerged in the water?

I can see how this might happen in a remote desert somewhere, winds, shifting sands, no one around ...but a beach? Just tides...to swallow a large plane??

Sounds strange to me.

Not so strange. It is lawful to drive vehicles on many Washington State beaches and occasionally someone parks their car at low tide and takes a stroll, only to come back to a lost cause. When the water immerses the sand, the sand becomes very fluid. Just standing on the sand with the water occasionally washing over your feet, you will quickly notice you are sinking. I've seen a number of instances where I can see the roof of a car and nothing else.

onewhippedpuppy · 11-15-2007, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superman

Not so strange. It is lawful to drive vehicles on many Washington State beaches and occasionally someone parks their car at low tide and takes a stroll, only to come back to a lost cause. When the water immerses the sand, the sand becomes very fluid. Just standing on the sand with the water occasionally washing over your feet, you will quickly notice you are sinking. I've seen a number of instances where I can see the roof of a car and nothing else.

Look closer. Maybe you can post a thread about your '73 RS "beach find".

Joeaksa · 11-15-2007, 12:42 PM

"He said: "It still has a lot of high octane fuel onboard, so it's important that the public doesn't go near it."

Give me a forking break! How stupid can people be? Gas after this long and mixed with saltwater still explosive? It is a good spin to keep people away from the bird but what they really need to be careful of are the possible ammo or munitions still on the ship.

flashgordon13 · 11-15-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

It's the historic value of it. An aircraft that actually fought in WW2 has historic significance. A replica, even a good one, is just another cool plane.

Would you rather have a ratty Ford GT40 that won at Le Mans, or a shiny new replica?

P38 is a cool and rare plane. Hopefully it's restorable, though I can't imagine it's in very good shape.

I understand the historic value of this aircraft and agree it needs to be restored. The GT-40 is not a valid comparison since no car is buried in salt water for 50 years. If I had to chose between a car buried for 50 years or a new reproduction, I would have to go with the reproduction. Planes, like cars, were not built to be museum pieces and should be used. An original WWII aircraft is far to valuable to be flown but many restored planes have so many reproduction parts that they should not be considered originals. If this plane is restored, it would likely have no original parts left on it, so I would consider it a reproduction.

onewhippedpuppy · 11-15-2007, 01:31 PM

Actually, many original WW2 aircraft are still flown today. I would guess that most are airshow showpieces, and don't see many flight hours, but they do still fly. Unfortunately, I'll be amazed if there's much left to be restored. I can't imagine saltwater would preserve as well as a glacier, probably just rust shaped like an airplane.

Shuie · 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

I can't imagine saltwater would preserve as well as a glacier, probably just rust shaped like an airplane.

Yep, I doubt this one will fly again. Not much left to weld replacement panels to either. Tetanus is probably the concern, not fuel or ammo that wasn't removed when it was abandoned.

Komenda Fan · Komenda Fan's Garage

Based on the picture above, I doubt anything will be salvageable, but just having it will allow the restorer to use its airframe number on a recreation, and it will be considered "restored". I'm happy with that, another P38 in the air is fantastic. The Hamilton aviation museum close to hear flies a Lancaster up and down the coast of the lake in the summer, its a gorgeous sight. Sometimes it is flying with their Harvard, too.

I wish they could find a few Mitsubishi Zeros somewhere, I always liked those aircraft, and from what I understand, there are only a few flying, and only one with its original Sakae engine. The rest now fly with Pratt and Whitney radial engines. I was at the Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo this summer, and there is a Zero in the main entrance way. Gorgeous. If only I could see one in the air...

audi2.7t · 11-17-2007, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mo_Gearhead

What I find amazing is how quickly it was covered in sand as to become un- noticed by the public? Unless it was partly submerged in the water?

I can see how this might happen in a remote desert somewhere, winds, shifting sands, no one around ...but a beach? Just tides...to swallow a large plane??

Sounds strange to me.

This is just up the road from my parents house....there's a lot of stuff lying around Wales from WWII . There's actually a vast cave network that's full of American surplace that is still maintained in working order under the agreement by GB and the USA from the war...jeeps, trucks, motorcycles, tanks etc.
The reason that the plane was "lost" is that the beaches and the miles around them were closed for the duration of the war and for some time afterwards. The plane was striped of it's guns after it was decided that it was not salvageable and sat at the water's edge, out of the public's eye, for years before getting buried by the sand and tide.

Joeaksa · 11-17-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audi2.7t

This is just up the road from my parents house....there's a lot of stuff lying around Wales from WWII . There's actually a vast cave network that's full of American surplace that is still maintained in working order under the agreement by GB and the USA from the war...jeeps, trucks, motorcycles, tanks etc.

Any proof of this? Never heard a word about it and thats not something that stays hidden for 70 years...

RoninLB · 11-17-2007, 09:32 AM

a friend's boyfriend is a WW2 pacific fighter pilot living in Calif desert. He says these old planes have to be flown weekly to keep them usable. Many collectors may have only 2 or 3 fighter planes and these old pilots are in demand to do the job. Supposedly the nuances of each model make it difficult for a young pilot to master.

Many of these old planes in the SW. They may be shown indoors at local airports.

KNS · 11-17-2007, 02:09 PM

Lots of young guys flying these things. The "Chino Kids" (Steve Hinton and such) have flown them all. (of course, the Chino Kids are in their fifties now). During the war, the pilots were not much more than kids themselves.

audi2.7t · 11-17-2007, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

Any proof of this? Never heard a word about it and thats not something that stays hidden for 70 years...

Well.... you are living on the wrong side of the Atlantic to know anything about it. Can't tell you off the top of my head the name of the area/caverns but they do exist and are fairly common knowledge back home. The equipment was a war loan from the US before they entered WWII as assistance to the British with the agreement that it would be maintained until returned....Was never deemed worth returning at the end of the war but is still kept in working order per the agreement. Once in a blue moon a piece will find it's way out of there and get sold...maybe to defray costs. An old friend of mine is an explosives and caving engineer and has been in and mapped almost every cave in Wales including the ones I'm talking about.