Why public schools are failing, black and white

[Evans, Marv]

So many of you have the right ideas about the education situation. I retired a couple of years ago from education. I worked in lots of different jobs in the school district: teaching, curriculum development, giving workshops, district rep to local business, working in & management of grant programs, grant & proposal writing, etc., etc. I have posted comments about my thoughts concerning education before, so I won't repeat.
But there are mechanisms in the system that discourage too much success and hard work associated with teaching. I will give you an example. My wife always wanted to be a teacher, and got her certification at an older age than the typical beginning teacher. In fact she is in her fourth year this year. She was lucky enough to start at a new school in an upscale neighborhood.
She was nominated as the "Teacher of the Year" candidate for the past two years (the school didn't have a nominee the first year) by her school to the District and of course didn't get it. Someone who has been in the system for 20+ years gets it.
She is super talented, super able, super creative, and a super hard worker. She was educating her first graders generally from past second grade level to fourth grade level in some instances in terms of basic abilities in reading, math, writing , etc.
I told her she would probably suffer as a result, because they would load her class with low level kids and kids with behaviour problems, and she disregarded that.
This year, she was transferred to 3rd grade and amazingly enough given a class of low level kids and kids with behaviour problems. When she commented about this to the Principal, the Principal told her the 3rd grade level was low on test scores and that as a "strong teacher", she could handle it.
Now as the workaholic she is, she is doing a great job with the kids she has. But you'll never see them doing that sort of thing to a lousy teacher.

[snowman]

Your are correct. Punish the successful, reward the mediocre. Thats the socialist way.

I wonder how much better our graduates would do if they were taught by the best to be the best? The bottom is not going to pull up anyone by their bootstraps.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

I told her she would probably suffer as a result, because they would load her class with low level kids and kids with behaviour problems, and she disregarded that.
This year, she was transferred to 3rd grade and amazingly enough given a class of low level kids and kids with behaviour problems. When she commented about this to the Principal, the Principal told her the 3rd grade level was low on test scores and that as a "strong teacher", she could handle it.
Now as the workaholic she is, she is doing a great job with the kids she has. But you'll never see them doing that sort of thing to a lousy teacher.

So a good teacher is given poorly performing students. That doesn't seem wrong or out of the ordinary. If she were teaching a gifted program, that would be another story. Of course, with LAUSD, you wouldn't see poor performing kids in a gifted program.

[Evans, Marv]

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by snowman

Yes, if those schools are failures. Send the students to successful schools.

So Sno say you have an inner city school w/dropout rate of 25% when the surrounding schools are 50%. And you have a 'burb school where the dropout rate is 25% surrounding schools are 10%. Which one(s) of these schools are successful? How about which group of schools should you compare each of them to?


BTW more money has always been the american way to solve any problem...

[dd74]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

What? You don't agree? Or is that a typical modern-day "educator's" response?

[berettafan]

there are certainly bad teachers who don't care but......

a: gov't programs like 'no child left behind' are simply massive testing programs. administrators are told to 'make sure the kids pass the standardized tests...at all costs'. this essentially turns teachers into 'readers'. the learning process is no longer dynamic and flexible. politicians have stuck their fingers waaaay too far into the pie here.

b: teachers have had their hands tied behind their backs in the discipline arena and are not given the tools needed to deal with bad apples. it only takes one punk to ruin an entire class. the effects of this are FAR reaching (think about having constant disruption in basic algebra). punks simply are NOT booted any more.

c: parents are not doing their part. they are not 'parents' so much as babysitters any more. garbage in/garbage out. cell phones in the hands of 8yr olds, 10yr olds with thongs.....as a nation our parenting sucks.

So, get the bad kids OUT and drop the b.s. testing programs.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by berettafan

So, get the bad kids OUT and drop the b.s. testing programs.

Not only that, but some of the money is based on pass rates. Therefore nobody wants to fail a student. Students should have to stay back if they can't cut the next level.

Here's another politically untenable option. Your kid gets 12 yrs of tuition free (if they want it). That's it. If they are smart enough, then maybe they can accelerate and get some of those years in college (state run of course). Or make it 8 + 4 (like the British). Those that don't want to be in school get manditory boot to trade schools (if capable) earlier.

[Evans, Marv]

The emphasis on passing every student on to college/university hasn't served our society and economy well. Not everyone is suited for succeeding in a purely academic regimen at a university. There isn't anything wrong with that. There are many different kinds of "intelligences" and talents which don't fit into the iniversity box. For years in some european countries, students would be evaluated before going on to an advanced education. Those who were inclined toward something other than a continued academic education were offered alternative routes of education and training. That allowed them to be trained for other things no doubt less frustrating and more rewarding for them.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by berettafan

So, get the bad kids OUT and drop the b.s. testing programs.

And do what with them afterward? Let them languish? Become homeless because they have no viable work skills? Join the military - which is also becoming difficult as it too has become highly skilled.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by dd74

And do what with them afterward? Let them languish? Become homeless because they have no viable work skills? Join the military - which is also becoming difficult as it too has become highly skilled.

Yup.


Sorry but it's the only answer. The bad apples have no viable work skills when they graduate high school so why let them ruin it for the rest of the students who might succeed with a little less interuption and bad influence? The end result for them is NO DIFFERENT but the end result for other students can be significant.


Marv, I agree 1,000%.

[1fastredsc]

Originally Posted by snowman

Teachers, in general, are not to blame for the state of our public schools.

This is crap, i know because i'm young enough to remember my time in public school clearly (currently 24). The problem comes from a mix of everything ranging from teachers, students, parents, laws, etc. I had my mix of bad teachers, and it wasn't necessarily that they didn't know what they were talking about, just that they couldn't convey that knowledge worth a crap. Then there are parents who either work too hard or too much to be involved, or they just don't care because they see education as a necessary evil before their kids can drop out and get a real job. Then there's societies influence on students, where they don't want to learn because education is second rate to sports. Our society idolizes sport figures, you ask a child who he'd like to be when he grows up and you get answers like Peyton Manning, Michael Jordan, etc. No one cares about people like Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, etc. Even young girls idolize celebrities instead of scholars, like Paris Hilton, Kimora Simmons, etc. Then there are laws that setup what is believed to be a standard for all students graduating high school. I scored extremely high in math and reading/critical thinking, but had a lot of problems passing the writing portion. Problem i had motivating myself to be a better writer came from knowing that i'd either work on cars for a living, or go onto college for engineering, why the hell do i need to understand how to bull**** on paper? Then on top of that you go to college and you end up taking classes that you thought you already took in high school. The difference is that they emphasize learning something, and get rid of the other crap. By the time your done with your first year of college you feel like the last two years of high school were a waste.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

When education became intertwined with politics and government, it failed.

Government screws EVERYTHING up, intentionally or not. I think it's inherent to its nature.

Cut off public funding and issue dollar-value vouchers for parents to spend on the schools of their choice. Implement a form of market competition amongst the schools and you'll quickly start fixing the problem.



The only problem I have with this is it still is a "redistribution of wealth" (a socialist tenet) from those who do not have children to those who do, although as long as the vouchers are strictly controlled and used ONLY for education, I suppose I wouldn't have too much problem with that - and that's speaking from a guy who has no kids. I'm not so foolish as to think that we can disregard the fact that children ARE our future and we better give them the proper training and society today to address problems tomorrow - including taking care of us.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by 1fastredsc

Then on top of that you go to college and you end up taking classes that you thought you already took in high school. The difference is that they emphasize learning something, and get rid of the other crap. By the time your done with your first year of college you feel like the last two years of high school were a waste.

And by the time you actually learn how to do the job in your chosen field you realize at least 60% of college was a waste as well.

[1fastredsc]

Originally Posted by berettafan

And by the time you actually learn how to do the job in your chosen field you realize at least 60% of college was a waste as well.

Oh dude, don't tell me that, i have two semesters to go.........

[berettafan]

An honest college would adopt the slogan 'we get you the interview, after that it's on you buddy'. This MAY not hold true for law or certain sciences, can't speak to that. I'm a CPA and i can tell you that the stuff i bill $135/hr for i learned on the job.

Soooooo much b.s. in college. There is a suggestion that those who can't, teach. If it holds truth anywhere it is at the college level. But you put in your time and earn your grades to get the interview.

Kids that adopt an attitude of 'i don't see why this is important so screw it' in grade school are likely to adopt the same attitude in the working world as well and thus be failures there too.

[the]

Yup.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by berettafan

And by the time you actually learn how to do the job in your chosen field you realize at least 60% of college was a waste as well.

True to a point.

The usual/expected counter to that is "well, college teaches you discipline, basic skills like writing and effective communication, etc."

Nowadays I really even question that. More and more I see individuals with college degrees that can't write (fundamental grammatical mistakes like confusing "their" with "there" or "they're", misspellings, etc.) College is about cranking out students now and the more you can crank out, the more $$$ you make and the larger pool of benefactors you build for the future.

When's the last time a college actually flunked anyone?

[Jims5543]

Originally Posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

Nope, the problem isn't the schools or the students, it's the parents. Ask my wife - she was a teacher.

No doubt in my mind there.

-Wayne

Every parent is bad?

Hard to believe.


I pulled my kid out of public school last year and it was the best decision I have ever made. The tuition is killing me but I will fight to keep both my kids in private school.

Public schools are as corrupt as the local government.


Oh, and private schools seem to be a magnet that draws in parents that care. A throw away kid stands out in there, one was just told to leave this year she was disruptive and it was obvious something was really wrong at home. Problem sent packing, school back to normal. She lasted 2 weeks.

This is why I will flip burgers if I have to to pay my kids tuition in private school.

[Racerbvd]

Originally Posted by Jim Cesiro

Every parent is bad?

Hard to believe.


I pulled my kid out of public school last year and it was the best decision I have ever made. The tuition is killing me but I will fight to keep both my kids in private school.

Public schools are as corrupt as the local government.


Oh, and private schools seem to be a magnet that draws in parents that care. A throw away kid stands out in there, one was just told to leave this year she was disruptive and it was obvious something was really wrong at home. Problem sent packing, school back to normal. She lasted 2 weeks.

This is why I will flip burgers if I have to to pay my kids tuition in private school.

Very true, like anything in life, it means much more if you have to earn it.
The teachers union is a major problem too, as is liberalism. Education in the USA started dropping at the same time liberalism started, mid 60s.