Why public schools are failing, black and white

[snowman]

Public schools are failing for one very simple reason, we reward failure!!

The public schools are the only industry in the world where if you do bad, you get more money, ie a reward for failure.

The simple solution to the public school problem is to simply reward the successful schools and shut off the money to the bad ones. Even a moron can tell that, after a while, without more money, bad schools will go out of business, that simple. If you only fund successful schools, you will only have successful schools.

Get the commies out of our schools or shut the public schools down.

Since getting the commies out is highly unlikely, I say stop funding public schools. Vote NO on every funding request. Its the only way. Support free and private education. Leave no child behind, in a public school.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by snowman

Public schools are failing for one very simple reason, we reward failure!!

The public schools are the only industry in the world where if you do bad, you get more money, ie a reward for failure.

The simple solution to the public school problem is to simply reward the successful schools and shut off the money to the bad ones. Even a moron can tell that, after a while, without more money, bad schools will go out of business, that simple. If you only fund successful schools, you will only have successful schools.

Get the commies out of our schools or shut the public schools down.

Since getting the commies out is highly unlikely, I say stop funding public schools. Vote NO on every funding request. Its the only way. Support free and private education. Leave no child behind, in a public school.

Your simple solution simply won't work.

Simple question, where do you propose to send the children of the failing school that you have shut down?

Got news for you, a schools success is a combination of the admin, teachers, students, parents, community and environment.

But good luck with your plan.

[BeerBurner]

Originally Posted by stomachmonkey

Simple question, where do you propose to send the children of the failing school that you have shut down?

They will most likely be absorbed by the surviving schools which will increase the strain on those schools, require expensive construction/renovations to house them, and result in re-hiring the original teachers to teach them because of the teaching shortage.

Or, perhaps, the failing schools will be cleared out of faculty/staff and the schools will have to hire new teachers. The only question is "from where?" because, again, there is a shortage of qualified teachers.

The reality is that many of the new legislation (NCLB, for example) that requires more and more training/certification is discouraging many people from pursuing careers in education. I'm not trying to say that these laws are inherently bad because I do agree that teachers should know what they are talking about and be experts in their field. Unfortunately, the reality is that many people who are interested in teaching decide that the salaries don't justify amount of money/work needed to become a teacher. I know that for me, were it not for the fact that I really want to teach (and, quite frankly, I'm in a good financial position) I'd have thrown in the towel on becoming a teacher a long time ago.

Of course, I'm not saying that paying us more will solve all of our problems because it won't. I still see issues with bad parenting and unmotivated students, along with "grade inflation" for the sake of passing the problem student on to someone else. But I figure that as long as we're discussing the capitalistic business model approach to teaching, I should throw another spin on it.

BB.

[sjf911]

It is difficult to educate a segment of our society that doesn't want or value education. IIRC, there was a study done in Harlem recently trying to break this cycle by spending enormous dollars per student to try to increase high-school matriculation and college entrance. It basically showed that you could increase minority college attendance by tripling your per capita expenditures but for the most part, they all dropped out of college instead of high-school. Think of what you could have had if you had spent those dollars on students who really were educable.

[Jim Sims]

"Public schools are failing for one very simple reason, we reward failure!!

The public schools are the only industry in the world where if you do bad, you get more money, ie a reward for failure.

The simple solution to the public school problem is to simply reward the successful schools and shut off the money to the bad ones. Even a moron can tell that, after a while, without more money, bad schools will go out of business, that simple. If you only fund successful schools, you will only have successful schools.

Get the commies out of our schools or shut the public schools down.

Since getting the commies out is highly unlikely, I say stop funding public schools. Vote NO on every funding request. Its the only way. Support free and private education. Leave no child behind, in a public school."


Typical statements and a simple minded but wrong solution from someone who thinks they have succeeded in some facet of life and that therefore qualifies them to make pronouncements about any and everything else.

Spend a year working as a substitute teacher (there is crippling shortage - pay is poor and working conditions are tough) in the public schools and you will become vastly more informed.

Poor parenting (for numerous reasons) and the low value placed on education and learning in popular culture are two of the many factors that hinder our education system.

[Tobra]

It is not the schools that are failing, it is the parents and the students. One of the biggest mistakes we make in our educational system is that everyone wants and will benefit from a college education.

As my father always told me when I didn't want to do my schoolwork.

"That is fine, the world needs ditch diggers too"

[widgeon13]

Public schools are failing because of one thing "tenure". The system rewards all teachers equally, some do a great job of educating their students and others don't give a ****. If you can't fire a teacher, how can you improve the system.

My wife has substituted in our school system for 30 years, she basically gets called everyday she is in town and goes to work. She could be a full time teacher if she wanted too but enjoys the work and wants the flexibility, it's not a money thing. The point I am making is that she subs for a lot of the same teachers all the time and they abuse the system with absenteeism, personal days and just generally a poor attitude, but they can't be fired, period. Oh, and they are ****ty teachers.

There are plenty of dedicated teachers, most of which are overworked because of class size. Tenure just brings out the worst in the lazy SOB's

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Tobra

It is not the schools that are failing, it is the parents and the students. One of the biggest mistakes we make in our educational system is that everyone wants and will benefit from a college education.

As my father always told me when I didn't want to do my schoolwork.

"That is fine, the world needs ditch diggers too"

Same here, except that we are needing fewer ditch diggers as we are more mechanized.

Nobody mentions that American society does nothing to honor academic achievement at all levels - unlike sports/entertainment. While validation and motivation are important from the parents, the media response (IMO based on advertising dollars) to knowledge is limited to Jeopardy! and the national spelling bee (you have to pay for the Discovery Channel and then it's nothing about competition just achievements/history).

In England, years ago, there were nationally televised competitions between highschools and universities about real knowledge. Probably also kept some of the public more educated too....

[widgeon13]

Great idea, problem is no one would watch. Their all playing killer videos and surfing porn.

[BeerBurner]

Originally Posted by widgeon13

Public schools are failing because of one thing "tenure". The system rewards all teachers equally, some do a great job of educating their students and others don't give a ****. If you can't fire a teacher, how can you improve the system.

I co-taught with one teacher last year who was not only worthless (his final exam was to watch The Miracle Worker and do an essay on it... did I mention this was a PHYSICS CLASS???) but also damaging because he would actively pick fights with the kids, let them wander around the school and give them zero accountability. The number of times I went up the chain of command because of him was mind-boggling, and my role in that classroom quickly settled on keeping the kids from beating him down because, no matter how much he deserved it, the kids would come out on the losing end of that deal.

This guy would always be de-staffed and sent to another school but never let go. I suspect he hasn't lost his job because of the need for physics teachers. Fortunately, he plans on retiring this year or next.

BB.

[snowman]

Teachers, in general, are not to blame for the state of our public schools. I know about teachers because most of my family, extended family are teachers, principles, administrators. EG sisters, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, g grandmothers, gg grandmothers, ggg grandmothers, cousins....my daughter, to many to name.

The system is to blame. The system is a socialist, communistic based system that quite simply awards FAILURE, that SIMPLE, no fancy analysis required. NOTHING that is non government awards failure, NOTHING that is successful, including private schools rewards failure.

Teachers are to blame for accepting the indoctrination, something they should be smart enough to resist, to the socialist ways. I think all teachers should have at least 15 years experience in the "real" world before they are allowed to teach. IN other words a whole lot less so called socialist education courses and a whole lot more reality. After all they are not teaching rocket science, just the abc's and basics. Real independent learning must be left to college and post grad education, where people can start to think for themselves, when they have attained the tools necessary to start to learn. Real learning only takes place in the real world, after college. The purpose of education is to provide continuity, to provide the TOOLS. Knowledge is learned, only after the tools are mastered.

[M.D. Holloway]

Many teachers seem to want to do the right thing but they are very careful about what they can do or say for fear of getting sued.

It is in a towns best interest for their schools to do well - if not property values suffer. I saw this happen to a few towns several years ago. When the prop values stall it is only a matter of time before the next steps happen which help to bring it all down then the state has to come in to "help" by throwing money at the problem.

We are so good at looking to throw money at a problem until it goes away.

[the]

No. Schools are almost entirely merely a *reflection* of the PARENTS and the STUDENTS. I.e., the school is merely a mirror reflection of the community it is in.

Schools that are located in areas with parental failures are always going to fail as schools.

Schools that are located in areas with strong, interested, caring, successful parents (parent who are successful at parenting) are going to be successful.

If you have an area filled with parents who don't value education, and don't teach their kids to value education, hard work, integrity, etc., the school will fail, even if it were filled with teacher who are brilliant geniuses like snowman. That's because (1) a school is only a place that can present a kid with an OPPORTUNITY to learn (you can't teach a kid who isn't interested in learning), and (2) a school can't and shouldn't be expected to raise kids, i.e., teach them values, etc. That needs to be done by parents.

When you don't like what you see in the mirror, the solution isn't to throw money trying to fix the mirror.

[snowman]

Schools must accept that there are two kind of students. One has no interest in learning anything, the other has interest in learning everything. Traditionally this has been accommodated by tracking or even academic, and non academic school districts. The courts have decreed that all public schools must be equally funded, a communistic, socialistic decree that is destined to fail. Now even failures must be funded like successful schools. Just like I stated, we are rewarding failure. Only when the legislature has the gumption to take back their responsibility and tell the courts where to go, will this injustice be corrected. So far I haven't seen any thing that looks like gumption or guts or leadership in the legislature.

[stevepaa]

[QUOTE=snowman;3595927] The courts have decreed that all public schools must be equally funded, a communistic, socialistic decree that is destined to fail. Now even failures must be funded like successful schools. Just like I stated, we are rewarding failure. Only when the legislature has the gumption to take back their responsibility and tell the courts where to go, will this injustice be corrected. QUOTE]


unclear to me why equal funding destines schools to failure. please explain

and exactly what do you propose from a gumption point of view?

[the]

I don't think "funding" has much to do with it.

Again, the school is just a reflection of the community.

I went to a variety of public primary schools in So. Cal. in the 70s and 80s. Some of the lower end area schools in LA, to some of the highest rated public K-12 schools in Orange County (if you know those schools, you know how extremely successful they are).

The buildings looked pretty much the same, the teachers made roughly the same money, the books were the same, etc. I.e., there was no significant difference in "funding." The only real difference was the parents and the students.

Money, fancy books, computers, etc. are not what makes successful students.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by the

I don't think "funding" has much to do with it.

Again, the school is just a reflection of the community.

....

Money, fancy books, computers, etc. are not what makes successful students.

I believe this is Sno's point. He wants to eliminate funding for "unsuccessful" (how ever that is defined) schools.

[snowman]

Money does not define a successful school, thats why more money for schools is a fools errand. However in general, success is rewarded by money, failure is not. How does this jive with the mantra that all schools need is more money? Extra money is given to failures. Why not give this same money, money is a limited quantity, to successful schools? The money, given to failures is just pissed down the drain, reinforcing whatever caused the failure to begin with. No analysis is required, or needed. You reward success, that simple. Success will cause more of the same, failure, reinforced, will cause more failure. Its simple capitalism at work. Those, teachers, that cannot see this have been indoctrinated beyond salvation and should be fired.

In America, we need AMERICANS as teachers, not communists.

[the]

So are you saying that areas that are largely filled with bad parents should not have public schools?

[snowman]

Yes, if those schools are failures. Send the students to successful schools.