How Long Do We Have?

[nostatic]

I dismiss things that aren't supported or seem to come from seriously flawed data and/or analysis. If you have other empirical evidence that supports your views, that is fine. But if you draw your conclusion from the data presented in the OP (which is what your posts intimated), then yes, I have some difficulties.

It is clear to me that we're on the downward slide of the American empire. The only question is whether we will be able to retain some semblance of affluence and dignity or rather decay into squalor. The most recent example would be Britain. And I guess where they are now depends on your point of view.

I still maintain that hubris will be the downfall of this country. We are so far in over our heads in some areas and circumstances that it is downright scary. And we seem to not want to acknowledge the fact that in a "flat" world, we will have to rapidly evolve to maintain competitiveness. We wring our hands about the war on terror and largely ignore the true wars within our own borders (an economy based on consumerism rather than creation, outdated education system, flawed execution of immigration policies based on fear, etc). We as a country keep looking for someone to blame. Saddam, OBL, "the Chinese," etc. Time to look in the mirror.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by nostatic

It is clear to me that we're on the downward slide of the American empire. The only question is whether we will be able to retain some semblance of affluence and dignity or rather decay into squalor. The most recent example would be Britain. And I guess where they are now depends on your point of view.

I still maintain that hubris will be the downfall of this country. We are so far in over our heads in some areas and circumstances that it is downright scary. And we seem to not want to acknowledge the fact that in a "flat" world, we will have to rapidly evolve to maintain competitiveness. We wring our hands about the war on terror and largely ignore the true wars within our own borders (an economy based on consumerism rather than creation, outdated education system, flawed execution of immigration policies based on fear, etc). We as a country keep looking for someone to blame. Saddam, OBL, "the Chinese," etc. Time to look in the mirror.

Hubris is like a tracer bullet...it works both ways. I agree with your synopsis of what is wrong, but I have issue with some your proofs as to why: our education system is not, "outdated", it has been "dated" to the point of indifference. We need to return to the basics, RWA...it is the only way to rapidly evolve, just look at our competitors.

And the war on terror is real...even Friedman, the king of flat, acknowledges it.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Seahawk

Hubris is like a tracer bullet...it works both ways. I agree with your synopsis of what is wrong, but I have issue with some your proofs as to why: our education system is not, "outdated", it has been "dated" to the point of indifference. We need to return to the basics, RWA...it is the only way to rapidly evolve, just look at our competitors.

And the war on terror is real...even Friedman, the king of flat, acknowledges it.

What competitors are you talking about? I have a bit of experience with the Chinese education system. Actually I think their design plays to our advantage. They focus on drill and test, to the detriment of creativity. They are not evolving in a long-term fashion, but instead blossoming on the back of cheap labor and lots of natural resources. That can't be sustained.

Our education system has gone backwards imho, largely based on the insistence of focusing on lowest-common-demoninator metrics (ie standardized tests). I'm all for the three R's, but they need to be contextualized for the new world. Visual literacy is a key to success, but we don't really teach that.

The war on terror is real, but our approach to it is ham-fisted and antiquated. There are other ways...

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by nostatic

What competitors are you talking about? I have a bit of experience with the Chinese education system. Actually I think their design plays to our advantage. They focus on drill and test, to the detriment of creativity. They are not evolving in a long-term fashion, but instead blossoming on the back of cheap labor and lots of natural resources. That can't be sustained.

Our education system has gone backwards imho, largely based on the insistence of focusing on lowest-common-demoninator metrics (ie standardized tests). I'm all for the three R's, but they need to be contextualized for the new world. Visual literacy is a key to success, but we don't really teach that.

The war on terror is real, but our approach to it is ham-fisted and antiquated. There are other ways...

Drill and test was the standard for years...coupled with Latin and literature and ethics and math. It was the formula that, IMHO, made us into the engine of progress we are. Faults? Yes. But I would not trade my classic Catholic school education for any other...give me a workable alternative.

From a strong foundation comes creativity...and that foundation should include visual literacy, which I would, as UAV PM, love to talk to you about. Drill and test, in the proper amounts, makes creativity almost certain because thought requires discipline.

I have been to the war on terror, and I agree with your assessment...but we are fighting antiquity, which is brutish.

[sammyg2]

UUUHHHMMMM, now might be a good time to mention one teensie-weeeensie fact.
We DO NOT have a democratic form of government in the United States of America, we do not live in a democracy and never have and probably never will.
What we have here little boys and girls, is called a representative form of government, not a democracy.
There is a really big difference. As big as your mom and dad's house!
We don't vote for everything, we vote for people to vote on things for us. We call those people representatives because they represent us.
Now your assignment tonight is to go home and study the differences so we can discuss this tomorrow with a little bit of intelligence.
Now put your heads on your desks for quiet time until the bell rings, your teacher has a hangover

[nostatic]

I totally agree on the discipline. The only reason I force my son to do homework is to learn a work ethic...it certainly isn't to learn any content. I think this is part of the problem. "The system" seems to think they're teaching content instead of process.

I wouldn't trade my CA public school education for anything...but I also know the value of my liberal arts education at a Catholic University, and my formal logic and philosophy/religion courses I took there.

[Superman]

Indeed, the original article posted here is, ummmm, well....it goes beyond the data with its conclusions. If you agree with the ideology of this so-called "researcher," and if you don't understand logic, then you might not see the unsupported assumptions and conclusions. Everyone else will see it right away.

But as Nostatic says, regardless of whether you can distinguish good research from junk, the question of whether the Welfare State will destroy our society or not is probably a live question. I happen to think this "Welfare State" societal collapse model is......crap. But I do think our nation will undergo a revolution. The revolution will have less to do with the lazy good-fer-nuthin welfare trash versus the self-made millionaires, and more to do with the observation that there will be two Americas. One for the lazy fatcats who have and make bunches of money but don't actually work (except to shift money and people and ideas around), and one for the rest of the people who actually do the work. The well-to-do are getting more and more well-to-do. At the same time, the folks who beat their heads against a wall trying to make ends meet with three jobs, are getting less and less well-off. That's scary.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Superman

there will be two Americas. One for the lazy fatcats who have and make bunches of money but don't actually work (except to shift money and people and ideas around).

Talk about sterotypes and prejudice. Me thinks that is typical of Liberal thinking.

Yeah all those "fatcats" use their brains instead of their backs. Second to make all that money they tend to work many more hours than a 9 to 5 type. Third they take risk, and are not satisfied with punching a clock.

Now if you asked me about Corporate executive pay packages. Now there is something that has gotten out of whack, with relationship to the rest of the world. They really are not worth all that extra juice. They in the end are still just employees.

[cashflyer]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

How Long Do We Have?

5 years, 35 days, 7 hours, 21 minutes. (Give or take.)

Enjoy while you can.

[Superman]

Touch a nerve?

You mentioned that the fatcat group does these heroic things:

"Yeah all those "fatcats" use their brains instead of their backs. Second to make all that money they tend to work many more hours than a 9 to 5 type. Third they take risk, and are not satisfied with punching a clock."

I know some folks who are very bright, willing to work 9-5 (actually much longer than that) are not satisfied with punching a clock and willing to take on any risk. I guess that makes them fatcats, right. Oh, wait a minute. There's one thing missing. Oh yeah, money. How smart do you have to be to invest and keep your money and make more? I say most folks are plenty smart enough. And in many cases, more industrious than the folks who don't have to work but just invest their money. So really, the thing that separates the lazy rich from the working poor is that the rich are......rich and the working poor are......working. That's not going to make the rich folks mad, but what does it look like from the perspective of the working poor?

Go ahead and see if you can convince me that rich folks are somehow more industrious, or smarter, or more productive than working men and women. From where I sit, the real difference is that the rich have the money. When the majority of the nation wakes up and notices they fall into the "working poor" category, there are going to be problems.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Superman

Touch a nerve?

You mentioned that the fatcat group does these heroic things:

"Yeah all those "fatcats" use their brains instead of their backs. Second to make all that money they tend to work many more hours than a 9 to 5 type. Third they take risk, and are not satisfied with punching a clock."

I know some folks who are very bright, willing to work 9-5 (actually much longer than that) are not satisfied with punching a clock and willing to take on any risk. I guess that makes them fatcats, right. Oh, wait a minute. There's one thing missing. Oh yeah, money. How smart do you have to be to invest and keep your money and make more? I say most folks are plenty smart enough. And in many cases, more industrious than the folks who don't have to work but just invest their money. So really, the thing that separates the lazy rich from the working poor is that the rich are......rich and the working poor are......working. That's not going to make the rich folks mad, but what does it look like from the perspective of the working poor?

Go ahead and see if you can convince me that rich folks are somehow more industrious, or smarter, or more productive than working men and women. From where I sit, the real difference is that the rich have the money. When the majority of the nation wakes up and notices they fall into the "working poor" category, there are going to be problems.

Super U have the typical Liberal attitude that those making a $ are evil. That everybody would be better off living in a socialst paradise. Only one problem that philisophy has been discredited and is now on the scrap heap of history.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Superman

Go ahead and see if you can convince me that rich folks are somehow more industrious, or smarter, or more productive than working men and women.

I suppose I am a typical "rich" American. How did I get here? Let's see...

Inheritance = 0
Passive income = 0

I've been broke and homeless, but followed that up with a 30 year string of 80 hour work weeks. It's a pretty simple formula really.

I think that you mistakenly assume that most of us "rich guys" make our money from an inherited portfolio. I don't believe that's the case. When poorly motivated people inherit wealth, they generally squander it. Most of the "fat cats" I know work their asses off. Really.

[Racerbvd]

Go ahead and see if you can convince me that rich folks are somehow more industrious, or smarter, or more productive than working men and women. From where I sit, the real difference is that the rich have the money. When the majority of the nation wakes up and notices they fall into the "working poor" category, there are going to be problems.

Many people start with nothing only to build wealth, what keeps the poor poor is their poor decisions and always relying on others (like unions) instead on doing what is in their best interest. How do you think the rich get their money?? The work for it!!!!

rich folks are somehow more industrious, or smarter, or more productive than working men and women.

That is too easy, they don't have some fatcat union officer sitting on their ass, taking the working poors money, when they haven't invested in the business, just seized power. To be poor in America, you have to be pretty stupid and make some dumb decisions. Of course your poor blame every one but them selves for their bad decisions!!!

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Anyone else here read Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"? I have. The parallels between the Roman Empire in its waning years and the modern-day United States are frightening. It's almost scripted.

Anyone who thinks history doesn't (or won't) repeat is delusional.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Porsche-O-Phile

Anyone else here read Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"? I have. The parallels between the Roman Empire in its waning years and the modern-day United States are frightening. It's almost scripted.

Anyone who thinks history doesn't (or won't) repeat is delusional.

Geez I'm glad you can at least read the handwriting on the wall. Even if it is in a hugh neon sign that lights up half the planet.

[Superman]

Moses and Tabs, I don't think the way you think I think. I think.

I don't have the impression that folks with comfortable estates inherited the money. And I don't think they are necessarily lazy. They're also not evil. Some of you (not naming names here) have this rather angry and always-the-same response to discussions like this. I strongly suggest you listen more carefully.

I see both sides of this equation. I come from an upper middle-class family. I have four siblings who are all successful professional people. I drive a Porsche (or at least, I used to) and wear shiny shoes. But I also understand the perspective of the working poor. You guys who rail and wail and cry out about socialists who think rich people are evil......are doing your best to not listen I guess. Listen up. There are lots of working poor people who do not have the extra time to find a way to become more financially successful, and do not know where to start. They are intelligent. Hard-working. Not angry. They just don't know the stuff that more affluent people know. Heck, we teach personal hygiene to some young workers. Showing up on time. Saying "Mister" and "Ma'am." It's not that they like being stinky and late and discourteous. The problem is they've never heard these lessons. They don't know the language of success.

Back to the discussion. Tabs, it's not about me thinking you're evil. It's not even about them thinking you're evil. It's about them looking around themselves and saying (I work hard, three jobs, pay taxes, raise kids, support schools, make my lunch, consider college, etc., and I see myself getting no real part of the American Dream while these guys are driving around in their brand new Porsches talking on their cell phones. I unplug their drain and septic systems. These people do NOT work harder than I do, and they're not all that smart either. They just "have." Why should they just "have" while I just "work?" I do the work that needs to be done in society, while they play their stock trading games. I work HARD for nothing. They relax and have hundred-dollar lunches and every day is like a weekend."

They're not accusing you of being evil, Tabs. They're simply noticing that they work hard and don't have money, while you don't.....and do.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Originally Posted by tabs

Geez I'm glad you can at least read the handwriting on the wall. Even if it is in a hugh neon sign that lights up half the planet.

LOL! Too true, although most people seem to either ignore the obvious or not care about the reality staring them in the face. They'll end up just as screwed as the rest of us.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Superman

It's about them looking around themselves and saying (I work hard, three jobs, pay taxes, raise kids, support schools, make my lunch, consider college, etc., and I see myself getting no real part of the American Dream while these guys are driving around in their brand new Porsches talking on their cell phones. I unplug their drain and septic systems. These people do NOT work harder than I do, and they're not all that smart either. They just "have." Why should they just "have" while I just "work?" I do the work that needs to be done in society, while they play their stock trading games. I work HARD for nothing. They relax and have hundred-dollar lunches and every day is like a weekend."

Among the teeming hordes of septic system jockeys is one who works harder than the rest. And he sees opportunity. He starts his own plumbing business. He starts small but works his tail off. Next thing you know, he's driving a 911 while chatting on his cell phone. It's the natural order of things. He's hard working, insightful and he'll take risk. THAT'S what separates him from the "working poor". It'll never change.

[Superman]

I understand that, Moses. That is a success story. And.....it doesn't require much luck. Just hard work and some vision and some ability to ask questions and remember answers. And ambition. I get it. I understand.

But I also understand this is not the whole story. To a large degree, I play Devil's Advocate here (don't tell the other guys) and it's partly because these visions I receive are only part of the story. They are the ultrasimplistic version. In the Ultrasimplistic Version, why does somebody not become financially comfortable? In the Ultrasimplistic Version, it's plain ol' laziness. And.......real life is not that simple. You and I have talked on the phone. And......I have admired your writing skill and your clarity of thought for years. Thank you. Your story is a rags-to-riches one? Not entirely. You were not born a poor black child in Tennessee. Your writings and your personal verbal discourse betray a certain degree of social.....adeptness. Class. Whatever you want to call it. There are mechanics out there who would have been gifted doctors.

Back to the subject. When 80% of the country is owned by the 10% of people who don't work, the folks who do work are going to scratch their heads and ask whether, in a democracy, this makes sense, they will consider your guys' defenses of the get-what-you-can, survival-of-the-fittest society make sense. While their kids don't have medical insurance. They will imagine they're seeing some unfairness. You guys will think it's all terrifically fair. Gloriously fair. While those other guys, kids don't have medical insurance. And you'll need to pretend they think you're evil. Otherwise, you'll see their point. Again, not talking to you, Moses.

[Chuck Moreland]

Ever wonder how all those rich people get their money?

Most find something they are good at, then work hard at it.