Kurt,

It's tough, because all kids and parents are different. You kind of have to take bits and pieces of advice from everyone, and use the ones that you think will be most effective for you.

But as a general principle, I believe that kids are "born good." They want to be good and they want to be happy, and that is their natural state. Therefore, when they are "acting out" in a really bad way, they are trying to communicate that something is wrong. (Of course, all kids will have moments of acting out, pushing boundries a bit, testing authority, etc., that is natural and should be encouraged at some level, no one wants to raise a robot, and kids need to learn when they can push, and when they need to pull back. That's a skill adults need to have and kids need to learn).

Kids that are going beyond way reasonable bounds are experiencing something negative, and the actions are their way of expressing themselves, protecting themselves, or "fighting back." Kids can do that because they are feeling insecure, feeling like they aren't getting enough attention, feeling left out at school, alienated, too much pressure, too little guidance, or a million other things (those are just some examples).

Kids are, in the end, very resilient things, but they are also very, very sensitive creatures. They are in tune to many things on a level that most adults are not, or have forgotten. In working with your daughter, IMO the most important thing you can do is really get down to her level, "think like a kid," put yourself in her shoes and try to figure out WHY she is doing what she is doing.

I don't know you or your daughter, but my sense is that she doesn't like acting the way she is, but it's her only way of responding to whatever it is that is bothering her. You also have to be highly in tune with her to know what is going to be most effective in getting her behavior to straighten out. But the most effective approach will be a positive one - one where she will not feel like she is being forced to "behave," but one where she will be in a place where she no longer wants to engage in that kind of behavior.

...aslo, get a sense of what's cookin' at school.

You or your wife *need* to eat lunch with her at school, wait for her outside of class beforehand.
Observe. Head out to recess and hang out a bit.

Schools have an open door policy in this day & age of PC-ness........use it to your benefit.

My eldest was probably about 7 when we were told by his teacher that she thought he was ADD. Not wanting to believe this and suspicious of how many kids appear to have this problem we looked into it further instead of medicating the poor lad. After a little reading and thought we found that drinking soda and things like Sunny Delight seemed to set him off. After limiting how much of it he was drinking and giving him regular orange juice or gatorade instead the 'ADD' went away!

Teachers, parents, and even doctors seems so quick to label any problem as ADD. I guess this is because it is so much easier to give the kids Ritalin rather than spend some time to look into what the problem actually might be.

Another interesting point Kurt - have you tried stopping her drinking soda for a week?

and don't overlook a good night's sleep.

Our nearly 7 yr old daughter sleeps 11 1/2 hrs per night, YMMV.

Wow you guys have been great. I think number one my wife and I need to be on the same page. Already talked to her about it and she is willing to head off in this new direction.

Right on. Above all, remain calm..........wives aren't good at that, usually -

Diet - that's a good start - My son started acting up (8yrs old) - we linked it back to sweet Iced tea - mmm suger and caffine - after we eliminated that - he was much better behaved.

Kurt,
Just chimed in to the thread and don't have alot of time as I'm heading to a meeting.
I can feel for you man and your posts have been very humble and sincere.

I raised 5 children and now have 2 grand children too.
I have read a ton of books on the subject and put all kinds of effort and energy into the subject too. I love kids, the world belongs to the child.

A couple things you can think about:
I believe that life is built on a foundation. Sometimes the foundation of our lives gets a crack in it or even breaks; we dont have the opportunity to go back and repair that foundation, so we must learn new skills to continue building our lives, but on the foundation of our pasts.

Your daughter is 7, she has a 7 year old foundation. As stated in this thread already, you will need to repair the foundation, because a bad foundation at 7 is surely going to be hurendous at 15 and later..... very true! I respect your obvious wisdom of already knowing this. Your daughters foundation also includes yours, your wifes and her siblings (if any).

You will need to carefully examine your foundations.
So quickly, I can tell you a couple things that I have learned;

1. The best thing that you could ever do for your child is to love their mother.
- spoil the mother, not the children.
- spend some time evaluating your relationship and enriching it. Date your wife for the rest of your life buddy.

2. The best thing you could ever teach your child is how to fail.
- we all make mistakes, but how we deal with those mistakes is what forms our true characters. Victory always sides with honesty and integrity. Teach your kids a value system.

3. Respect; you cannot expect your child to respect you (or others) until you (or others) show respect too. This is where my respect for God and my respect for my value system leads my children with a line in the road. The road is very long and there are many turn offs and exits, but as parents we need to teach our children how to return to find the road and return to it if they do turn off.

Not sure how this will help you buddy, but this is the readers digest of a grandpas version in raising a family.

Cheers and enjoy the journey..... you're already on the right road; so enjoy it.
Give your family a hug!

my son was a handful from day one. Now at age 11 he is quite amazing, but it required a lot of work and patience. He still isn't perfect, but he just ended therapy and is doing great in school. Here are a few things to ponder.

Get a psych evaluation. We actually had a couple done, as everyone was saying "ADD." Turns out he isn't ADD, but instead had a mood regulation disorder (whatever) and the prescription was fish oil. We briefly tried ritalin before getting that second opinion and it was a disaster. The second doc was a pediatric neurologist and said is is common for kids to be diagnosed as ADD and in fact not be (ADD).

Consider therapy. For all involved. My son did about 2 years of "play therapy" with a quite brilliant psychologist. He just ended as she said he is in a great place. The transformation of him and his behavior was quite amazing. Of course it is hard to tell how much of that was due to him getting older and maturing, but either way I think it makes a difference.

Having both you and your wife also work with the therapist can be a big help too. We are often blind to the way we interact with our kids (and our spouses) and an outside party can help sort that out. If mom and dad don't have a unified front, you will never be able to control the kid.

I have never spanked my son, and never will. He says "please" and "thank you" and is incredibly personable. In school he can still be disruptive but he does it because he likes it rather than being out of control. A bit of the class clown thing. But his teachers still love him to death because he is charming, bright, and very sweet.

No soda. I cut way back on candy and soda...he'll get a small soda every once in awhile if we have to do fast food on the road, but there is ZERO soda or candy in my apt. I don't drink soda either. When we go to fast food I get bottled water.

I acted out A LOT as a kid. I got into trouble a lot as a kid. I remember my parents asking me why I had to be that way, and as a kid, I didn't really know what to say.

Looking back, I know some of the reasons why now. I was horribly attention starved. Its not that I was ignored, but my PERCEPTION was that I was, and as a kid perception is reality.

I'd always get into SERIOUS trouble at my cousins house. It happened because my younger sister would go off with my cousin Suzanne, and my older brother would go off with my cousin Michael who was his age. I would just be sitting there, bored as hell. My parents never really got it that when we went there, I was basically a 7 year old looking at having nothing to do for 8 hours. 8 hours as a kid is eternity. I would try to hang out with the older guys, but they wanted nothing to do with me. That is, until I would start doing bad things. They would pay attention to me if I ran into the the dining room where our parents were and pulled down my pants and farted. GOD- my dad would get SO pissed. I can't believe that I never was physically abused- he had amazing restraint.

I also used to act out at school when I was underchallenged. I am not trying to be a pompous jerk, but I was a lot smarter than most kids back in 1st grade. Its because my parents read to me a lot and already had me working out math problems (don't worry- I lost my intellectual edge on the other kids by 7th grade and never recovered :p ). I was reading at a 5th grade level when I was in kindergarten, and in class they had me TRACING LETTERS. I traced all of them really fast and went into the back to play with the toys. The teacher asked why I did that- I said I already knew how to write letters. She scolded me for leaving the group and told me I would get no sticker. Things like that got me into a lot of trouble, because I would get so frustrated that at least a trip to the principal was interesting. Of course, I dreaded seeing my parents afterwards, but I did it anyway.

I guess what I am getting at is, try to put yourself in her shoes from the start of the day to see why she screws up when she does. Her world is really different that ours, and its hard to figure out why she acts out without really scratching the surface.

That being said, I am sure you'll figure it out because you are TRYING. Good for you for being a parent and taking care of your kid. She's got a good dad.

One more thing- I will put in another vote for curbing any caffeine or sugar. That stuff made me certifiably insane as a kid.

Kurt,

How I feel for you. Being a parent is the ultimate voyage, but being a parent with a problem is the ultimate intimidation. There are no garantees, no advice that always work, no tricks, no Bentley manual. There is just you, in best case another loving parent, and the child. I have had my share of parental debacle and neither being an experienced pediatrician nor a father of four have helped med diddly.

It is very, very difficult to hand out any substancial, general advice over the internet - yet you have already received excellent replies. I am so very impressed and humbled by the insight and warmth of our fellow Pelican gear heads. I can not add anything that would make this any easier for you and your child.

Well, maybe I will just repeat one or two things from previous posts.

It is, I believe, of paramount importance that the two parents are united, dispelling a common ground. It adds very much on the feeling of safety and security for the child. Children are at heart completely loyal to their parents. Discrepancies between the parents will inevitably result in a less secure and stable world in the eye of the child.

Further, children may seem like complete enigmas. Views, behavior and expressions may seem completely out of reason and context. They are not. With an otherwise normal and healthy child, the reactions and behavior are never irrationale if observed threw the correct looking glass. Problem is, as adults we have grown out of those pair of glasses long time ago. Alas.

I imagine this assymtri the same way many of you are, like my brothers, almost born mentally tuned into how a combustion engine works. No matter how hard I study and wrench it will never come natural for me. They just see it. Understand it. I don´t. Sure in theory, but not in practice.

Children have the same needs as an adult, albeit on more direct and primitiv level. What are a grown persons basic needs? Love, kindness, respect and acceptance as well as an fundamental understanding that we are all unique. Sincerely tuning into the childs inner thoughts is often difficult and above all takes time. Spending time, talking and having a good time is necessary. Finding that perfect blend of finding your inner child and really listen and try to understand - yet being a parent - is sublime and intricate.

Children have strong and powerful means of manipulating. Many times a parent will find himself pushed up into a corner. Out of options. Frustrated. Angry. Sorry. In such situation it is very easy to conform to methods instilling fear or shame in the child. I do NOT believe neither are productive for the childs mental maturition. They will grow up learning that threats and psychological manipulation are successful strategies.

Anyhow, as I started out a mile ago, I have no substancial advice. I am just ranting since I truly sympathize with you Kurt. As others have said, and merely reading you posts the last three years, I have good faith in you being as good a parent as any can be and that this will solve itself in good time. Be strong, loving and SEE and LISTEN to your daughter. The key to reaching her is inside her. You will find it.

Break out the Taser. :)



Keep a unified front as parents, and spend time involved in your daughter's activities. At this age, the other neighborhood / school kids are starting to have more influence on your child, and your influence is slowly waning. Stay involved during this time. Stay firm and consistent. Make sure your child feels loved and secure. Make sure she has positive outlets for her energy. Good luck, you still have the teen-age years ahead of you. :eek:

I gave up reading the Dear Kurt advice column posted here. I wonder when you Boyz look in the mirror do any of you have a reflection, or are all of you as deep as a cookie sheet.

If any of you believe in scientific principle you would understand that there is a reason for everything. You job as a Daddy, is to figure out the reason WHY this paticular behavior is happening. It is NO accident, no random unexplicable phenonomen, there is a reason. Maybe just maybe if you started to ask your child questions about how she feels, why she does she like certain things the information will lead you to an answer of what is bothering her. If you start her on the path of being self reflective she will be one up in life. I am not calling for any in depth analysis or meditation here just a simple awareness of why one does what one does. Kind of like knowing the motivation of a character in a play.

Without even reading much it is readily apparent your child is ANGRY at someone or some thing. She feels slighted or hurt by something. Her feelings have to be honored, and your goal is to teach her a more constructive way to express her anger. Simply put either you find out or this destructive path of expressing herself will continue the rest of her life. So its up to Daddy to give your child the tools and ability to use those tools to navigate her way through life.

Or you can follow the current flavor of the day and take handfulls of psychotropic mood altering pills everyday for the rest of your life. However like anything there is no free lunch and by taking those pills you do pay a price. One of those prices is that you continue to remain ignorant about the how and why things work the way they do. Also I have noticed that people who take that stuff tend to have more limited ranges of emotional responses. They just don't seem to be as alive anymore.

I'd be concerned. If she's respectful around you because she fears you, in the long run that's not going to be a successful strategy. I think that Pavlov pretty conclusively proved that fear of punishment doesn't teach anything but avoidance of the stimulus that causes the fear/pain. The real test is how she acts when you're not there, and it sounds like there are issues.

(Disclaimer, I'm only 10 years into the parenting thing, but do have two girls.)

1) If she's got issues at the somewhat innocent age of 7, it's only going to get worse as she goes through puberty before it will get better -- when she's about 25.
2) Spankings are not the norm in our house and have only been used maybe once on each child when they were young to snap them out of a tantrum.
3) My wife and I make a point to actively coordinate on the child rearing strategies. We agree on the punishments and rewards, as well as the associated triggers as much as possible before a situation occurs. We also make a point to agree on the personal objectives and standards of behavior for each child. We both then try to maintain the agreed upon standards. If something unexpected pops up, we'll usually voice our displeasure and let the offender now that punishment will be suspended until after we both have had a chance to discuss it because of the seriousness of it's nature. We often include the offender in that conversation and sometime let them chose the appropriate punishment (contingent on our agreement or adjustment). So far the one or two times that this approach has been used, the offender has selected an appropriate punishment.
4) Make a point to separate the punishment from our emotional reaction. We're not punishing them because we're angry, we're punishing them because we want them to remember what happened and think about what they did and why it wasn't acceptable. Schoolwork problems almost never result in punishment, but rather increased focus on homework standards.

In general, punishments in our house are withholding privileges, rather then physical pain. So lack of TV or screen time (which includes computer time), passing up play dates or the loss of something else that they enjoy.

So far, we've been blessed that both of our girls are considerate, self confident, well behaved and doing well in school.

Hey Kurt- you did have a pretty good health scare recently. Could that be weighing on her?

Hey now here is something that bears examination. That health scare might have really scared a child out of her wits. That fear if that is what it is needs to be addressed and the child reassured that everything will be OK.

Many times tensions between husbands and wives surfaces in children's behavior. You can apply the same dynamic to a health issue with one parent. In that the child's emotional environment has become unstable. Their behavior is just a reflection and their way of coping with that instability

Total '60s psycho-babble bull. We already know 'why'. It's because she's seven and so far she's getting away with it. Your job as a father is to be more Pavlovian. You care about creating an environment that leads to the desired behavior.

Go here. www.rosemond.com Read and learn.

I am done explaining I am telling... if you listen fine, if you don't..well continue on with your ignorance. Go back to yur cave and sit huddled by the fire shivering from fear of the darkness.

And how many kids did you raise, tabs?

(Just curious)

And what is doing it now?

Sorry, sorry , sorry....

SmileWavy

Yet part of 'creating that envornment' is analyzing - figuring out the reason why - the behavior is happening.

I was a fairly fhuked up kid that has now blossomed into a fairly fhuked up adult (I know you are all shocked to hear this).

I have not parented any children so take this advice with a grain of salt but I remember looking at a book about Parent Effectiveness Training or P.E.T. and it made a lot of sense and it dawned on me that if my parents had used some of those techniques on me I might not be the whack job I am today.

FWIW

- Sniped from a website - :

There are four basic types of parent programs which compete with P.E.T./F.E.T.:


A. Programs based upon the theories of Rudolph Dreikurs and Alfred Adler, e.g., S.T.E.P., Positive Parenting, Active Parenting.
B. Programs based upon behavior modification principles (influenced by the theories of B.F. Skinner), that is, the use of rewards and punishments, e.g., Responsive Parenting Program.
C. Programs not having any particular theoretical foundations, e.g., James Dobson's Dare to Discipline books and videos.
D. Programs based upon the writings of the late Dr. Haim Ginott, e.g., How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.

A-type programs borrowed Active Listening, I-Messages and conflict resolution steps (sometimes employing different terms).

Haim-Ginott-based programs (Type D) are heavy on Active Listening and confrontation, but somewhat weak on conflict resolution.

Behavior modification programs do not teach listening, I-Messages or conflict resolution. Their approach follows the Skinner model rather closely, reward to reinforce good behavior, and punish to eliminate unwanted behavior.

All four types of programs maintain that kids "misbehave," a term that puts the blame on the child. Our programs teach that kids don't misbehave, instead their behavior is simply an attempt to meet some need. Our programs help parents influence their children to change unacceptable behavior without the need to use punishments or rewards.

Both B and C type programs openly advocate punishment. A and D type programs also advocate punishment, but do so using kinder-sounding terms like "logical consequences," "time out," "quiet time" or "withdrawal of privileges." These are still actions parents take to make sure "misbehavior" is punished by unpleasant or painful effects in the hope of eradicating such behavior in the future.

None of the other parent courses deal with the critical issue of what parents should do when punishments do not work. They don't mention the possibility that kids may not obey, and may rebel, resist or retaliate. They assume that won't happen and that obedience will inevitably follow. Worse, they assume that kids will continue being obedient when away from a parent's vigilant eyes.

Behavior modification (B-type programs) does work with developmentally disabled kids (autistic, retarded, etc.), but it takes a lot of time and requires unbelievably controlled and laboratory-like conditions just to extinguish one undesired behavior or reinforce one desired behavior. Therefore, it is utterly inappropriate as a model for parents or teachers to use with normally developed children.

Our programs take a position against all kinds of punishment (physical or otherwise), as well as a position against using rewards to control children. In fact, it's not about control, it's about influence. As such, P.E.T./F.E.T. is intended to teach children self-discipline, not a discipline imposed by others.

A, B and C types of programs put the parent in the role of having authority over the child and advocate using it. D-type programs avoid the whole issue of authority. Only P.E.T./F.E.T. advocates a non-authoritarian (or equalitarian) relationship with children.

P.E.T./F.E.T. is the only program that advocates that rules and limits need not be imposed on kids by parents. Children learn to hate rules and as they grow begin testing just how much they can bend them. Kids are more motivated to follow rules that they had a voice in making.

-End of snipet-

YMMV... advice is usualy worth what you pay for it... a rolling stone gathers no moss... etc.

the book on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Effectiveness-Training-Responsible-Children/dp/0609806939

This question is pejorative in nature, and is designed to discredit my credibility, as I think you already know the answer. Sorry but this doesn't work.

Apparently there is some bad blood influencing the responses now.
Not fair to the guy who opened up & posted the initial question -

Keeping in mind the sensitivity and seriousness of the question, maybe we could refrain from letting this degenerate into a typical end of thread internet brouhaha:

"A brouhaha is a noisy clamourous response to a stimulus, produced by a crowd. It can also refer to the reaction expressed over a period of time to an event. It usually carries negative connotations, the uproar being an utterance of discontent, however it has taken on a milder nuance and a 'brouhaha' may be used to describe a clamour arising for no good reason" ;)

I gave Kurt the answer to his dilemma, you can go spend 1000s of $$$ going to a Shrink to come to the same solution if you want. So that effectivily ends the need to be differential. However I say lets kick it off and get the ball rolling..and take it to whatever Thread ya like...if ya wana be nicey nice to Kurt.

Anyway I am ready and willing...I got my cigar and a nice Baccarrat Rocks Glass full of McCallums Single malt...and nothing better to do at the moment.

I find John Rosemond to be an oasis of common sense in a sea of feel good, politically correct mumbo jumbo. Ymmv.

It's impossible for a non professional to give useful advice and I can only consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth for having been blessed with the most perfectly wonderful 7 year old girl I have ever been around.
I have never seen a child so easy to be around for even short periods of time.
She was treated as an adult. Her opinions were respected but she knew that what we said was the way it would be.
She was not spoiled but had no doubts she was adored.
I take little credit - her mother was wonderful with her.

The only time she was difficult - and it was like Dr. J. and little Miss Hyde - were the very rare times when she got into the sugar or soda.
She would also get a little down when something at school upset her.

I hope you work it out.
It can be a great age and in a few years it will get so much more complicated.

Maybe what Tabs said is worth thinking about - that your illness upset her.
You are after all the foundation of her world and when something shakes you imagine what it does to her.

Because it is the most character-building, two-letter word in the English language, children have the right to hear their parents say "No" at least three times a day.
............................................
Children have the right to find out early in their lives that their parents don't exist to make them happy, but to offer them the opportunity to learn the skills they-children-will need to eventually make themselves happy.
............................................
Children have a right to scream all they want over the decisions their parents make, albeit their parents have the right to confine said screaming to certain areas of their homes.
............................................
Children have the right to find out early that their parents care deeply for them but don't give a hoot what their children think about them at any given moment in time.
............................................
Because it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, children have the right to hear their parents say "Because I said so" on a regular and frequent basis.
............................................
Because it is the most character-building activity a child can engage in, children have the right to share significantly in the doing of household chores.
............................................
Every child has the right to discover early in life that he isn't the center of the universe (or his family or his parents' lives) that he isn't a big fish in a small pond, that he isn't the Second Coming, and that he's not even-in the total scheme of things-very important at all, no one is, so as to prevent him from becoming an insufferable brat.
............................................
Children have the right to learn to be grateful for what they receive, therefore, they have the right to receive all of what they truly need and very little of what they simply want.
............................................
Children have the right to learn early in their lives that obedience to legitimate authority is not optional, that there are consequences for disobedience, and that said consequences are memorable and, therefore, persuasive.
............................................
Every child has the right to parents who love him/her enough to make sure he/she enjoys all of the above rights.


Agreed with the exception of the word "Children" I would substitute the word PEOPLE...

tabs - was that from JR?

Yep, before I started a war with ya, I decided I better know what I'm arguing about.

Common sense
Treat them as an adult
Set clear limits
Mutual respect
Be nice
Be interested

Mix and enjoy.

tabby, my friend, the question of how many kids you have raised is relevant. Giving advice on parenting with no "hands on" experience is like a celebate cleric giving advice on marital matters.

I can confirm this to some degree. This little girl in my sleep example was put on Ritalin. It had zero effect on her behavior.

My daughter...a former 7 year old B!tch is now a 37 year old b!tch...but now she is her second hubby's problem, not mine. Good luck...may you survive the ensuing years...

I think this has run it's course........

Kurt, good luck to you - parenting is a true challenge.
My daughter will be 7 in January -

Guys I read every post, yes even yours tabs. I spent last evening distilling down a plan to use with my daughter. Wife is on board with it. The two of us spent this morning talking about love and respect for self and for others. We laid out the plan of reward and punishment for her behavior both at home and around others.Spanking and yelling is not in the plan. I will keep everyone updated as to our ongoing successes and failures. Once again the board comes through. Thanks to (almost) everyone for your insightful responses.

Kurt..

When I had my problems, this august group forgot its petty squabbles and gave me a lot of support. We may not have the answers, but we as a group, do care.

We will be waiting to see how things work out for you and your family.

Hi Kurt,
I have been reading the posts from others before giving any opinions. My kids are 1.5 and 4YO and although my wife is able to stay home with them, they are not without issues. I am pretty much set in my ways at 40 now so for us, I think the biggest change we made was to how I react and interact with my kids and my wife. We're normal people with stress and anxiety just everyone but the way we deal with it can have a big effect on our kids. Where before I would fly off the handle and raise my voice, lately(6months) I have tried very hard to not do that. I raise the volume of my voice when needed but it really has been a rare occasion. Usually at bedtime when the toys need to be cleaned up and they are tired.

I was a challenging kid, especially between 8 and 18. I loved my parents but got bored easily and that's when I got into trouble. I also used to get headaches and that would set me off. My Mom was the punisher because she was there during the day. If my Dad got involved, it usually meant it was serious although he never spanked us. I don't know if it was out of respect or not but I never wanted to disappoint him. Unfortunately, I didn't seem to care about disappointing my Mom. Don't get me wrong, we had a good, loving home. It's just that I was acting out, probably from frustration. We laugh about the stupid things I did now but I know I was a monster.

I don't know your family but there almost always is a back story as to why a child behaves unusually. I'm going to ask because I think it's important. You are a mixed race family?

Do you think there is a problem in reagards to that with her? Hopefully not but it may be as simple as her feelings about it. I'm not a pyschologist but I have been to counselers and being in management, training and classes on the emotions of people that this is now what I try to focus on when investigating a behavioral issue. (the back story, not a person's race. :) )

I wish you good luck in helping your family get through this tough time.

EDIT: Jeez, you guys concluded before I even finished typing.

Is listening part of your plan? Children are just little people. Children don't have the experience to have developed their communication skills, one of which is patience in getting their needs met. When children are not listened to they tend to act out and the more their needs are not being met the more egregious the behavior becomes.

Their is an old military axiom that once a plan is put into operation nothing goes according to plan. Or to put it another way the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray. So I wish you luck and hope everything works out OK.