And what is doing it now?

Sorry, sorry , sorry....

SmileWavy

Yet part of 'creating that envornment' is analyzing - figuring out the reason why - the behavior is happening.

I was a fairly fhuked up kid that has now blossomed into a fairly fhuked up adult (I know you are all shocked to hear this).

I have not parented any children so take this advice with a grain of salt but I remember looking at a book about Parent Effectiveness Training or P.E.T. and it made a lot of sense and it dawned on me that if my parents had used some of those techniques on me I might not be the whack job I am today.

FWIW

- Sniped from a website - :

There are four basic types of parent programs which compete with P.E.T./F.E.T.:


A. Programs based upon the theories of Rudolph Dreikurs and Alfred Adler, e.g., S.T.E.P., Positive Parenting, Active Parenting.
B. Programs based upon behavior modification principles (influenced by the theories of B.F. Skinner), that is, the use of rewards and punishments, e.g., Responsive Parenting Program.
C. Programs not having any particular theoretical foundations, e.g., James Dobson's Dare to Discipline books and videos.
D. Programs based upon the writings of the late Dr. Haim Ginott, e.g., How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.

A-type programs borrowed Active Listening, I-Messages and conflict resolution steps (sometimes employing different terms).

Haim-Ginott-based programs (Type D) are heavy on Active Listening and confrontation, but somewhat weak on conflict resolution.

Behavior modification programs do not teach listening, I-Messages or conflict resolution. Their approach follows the Skinner model rather closely, reward to reinforce good behavior, and punish to eliminate unwanted behavior.

All four types of programs maintain that kids "misbehave," a term that puts the blame on the child. Our programs teach that kids don't misbehave, instead their behavior is simply an attempt to meet some need. Our programs help parents influence their children to change unacceptable behavior without the need to use punishments or rewards.

Both B and C type programs openly advocate punishment. A and D type programs also advocate punishment, but do so using kinder-sounding terms like "logical consequences," "time out," "quiet time" or "withdrawal of privileges." These are still actions parents take to make sure "misbehavior" is punished by unpleasant or painful effects in the hope of eradicating such behavior in the future.

None of the other parent courses deal with the critical issue of what parents should do when punishments do not work. They don't mention the possibility that kids may not obey, and may rebel, resist or retaliate. They assume that won't happen and that obedience will inevitably follow. Worse, they assume that kids will continue being obedient when away from a parent's vigilant eyes.

Behavior modification (B-type programs) does work with developmentally disabled kids (autistic, retarded, etc.), but it takes a lot of time and requires unbelievably controlled and laboratory-like conditions just to extinguish one undesired behavior or reinforce one desired behavior. Therefore, it is utterly inappropriate as a model for parents or teachers to use with normally developed children.

Our programs take a position against all kinds of punishment (physical or otherwise), as well as a position against using rewards to control children. In fact, it's not about control, it's about influence. As such, P.E.T./F.E.T. is intended to teach children self-discipline, not a discipline imposed by others.

A, B and C types of programs put the parent in the role of having authority over the child and advocate using it. D-type programs avoid the whole issue of authority. Only P.E.T./F.E.T. advocates a non-authoritarian (or equalitarian) relationship with children.

P.E.T./F.E.T. is the only program that advocates that rules and limits need not be imposed on kids by parents. Children learn to hate rules and as they grow begin testing just how much they can bend them. Kids are more motivated to follow rules that they had a voice in making.

-End of snipet-

YMMV... advice is usualy worth what you pay for it... a rolling stone gathers no moss... etc.

the book on amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Parent-Effectiveness-Training-Responsible-Children/dp/0609806939

This question is pejorative in nature, and is designed to discredit my credibility, as I think you already know the answer. Sorry but this doesn't work.

Apparently there is some bad blood influencing the responses now.
Not fair to the guy who opened up & posted the initial question -

Keeping in mind the sensitivity and seriousness of the question, maybe we could refrain from letting this degenerate into a typical end of thread internet brouhaha:

"A brouhaha is a noisy clamourous response to a stimulus, produced by a crowd. It can also refer to the reaction expressed over a period of time to an event. It usually carries negative connotations, the uproar being an utterance of discontent, however it has taken on a milder nuance and a 'brouhaha' may be used to describe a clamour arising for no good reason" ;)

I gave Kurt the answer to his dilemma, you can go spend 1000s of $$$ going to a Shrink to come to the same solution if you want. So that effectivily ends the need to be differential. However I say lets kick it off and get the ball rolling..and take it to whatever Thread ya like...if ya wana be nicey nice to Kurt.

Anyway I am ready and willing...I got my cigar and a nice Baccarrat Rocks Glass full of McCallums Single malt...and nothing better to do at the moment.

I find John Rosemond to be an oasis of common sense in a sea of feel good, politically correct mumbo jumbo. Ymmv.

It's impossible for a non professional to give useful advice and I can only consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth for having been blessed with the most perfectly wonderful 7 year old girl I have ever been around.
I have never seen a child so easy to be around for even short periods of time.
She was treated as an adult. Her opinions were respected but she knew that what we said was the way it would be.
She was not spoiled but had no doubts she was adored.
I take little credit - her mother was wonderful with her.

The only time she was difficult - and it was like Dr. J. and little Miss Hyde - were the very rare times when she got into the sugar or soda.
She would also get a little down when something at school upset her.

I hope you work it out.
It can be a great age and in a few years it will get so much more complicated.

Maybe what Tabs said is worth thinking about - that your illness upset her.
You are after all the foundation of her world and when something shakes you imagine what it does to her.

Because it is the most character-building, two-letter word in the English language, children have the right to hear their parents say "No" at least three times a day.
............................................
Children have the right to find out early in their lives that their parents don't exist to make them happy, but to offer them the opportunity to learn the skills they-children-will need to eventually make themselves happy.
............................................
Children have a right to scream all they want over the decisions their parents make, albeit their parents have the right to confine said screaming to certain areas of their homes.
............................................
Children have the right to find out early that their parents care deeply for them but don't give a hoot what their children think about them at any given moment in time.
............................................
Because it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, children have the right to hear their parents say "Because I said so" on a regular and frequent basis.
............................................
Because it is the most character-building activity a child can engage in, children have the right to share significantly in the doing of household chores.
............................................
Every child has the right to discover early in life that he isn't the center of the universe (or his family or his parents' lives) that he isn't a big fish in a small pond, that he isn't the Second Coming, and that he's not even-in the total scheme of things-very important at all, no one is, so as to prevent him from becoming an insufferable brat.
............................................
Children have the right to learn to be grateful for what they receive, therefore, they have the right to receive all of what they truly need and very little of what they simply want.
............................................
Children have the right to learn early in their lives that obedience to legitimate authority is not optional, that there are consequences for disobedience, and that said consequences are memorable and, therefore, persuasive.
............................................
Every child has the right to parents who love him/her enough to make sure he/she enjoys all of the above rights.


Agreed with the exception of the word "Children" I would substitute the word PEOPLE...

tabs - was that from JR?

Yep, before I started a war with ya, I decided I better know what I'm arguing about.

Common sense
Treat them as an adult
Set clear limits
Mutual respect
Be nice
Be interested

Mix and enjoy.

tabby, my friend, the question of how many kids you have raised is relevant. Giving advice on parenting with no "hands on" experience is like a celebate cleric giving advice on marital matters.

I can confirm this to some degree. This little girl in my sleep example was put on Ritalin. It had zero effect on her behavior.

My daughter...a former 7 year old B!tch is now a 37 year old b!tch...but now she is her second hubby's problem, not mine. Good luck...may you survive the ensuing years...

I think this has run it's course........

Kurt, good luck to you - parenting is a true challenge.
My daughter will be 7 in January -

Guys I read every post, yes even yours tabs. I spent last evening distilling down a plan to use with my daughter. Wife is on board with it. The two of us spent this morning talking about love and respect for self and for others. We laid out the plan of reward and punishment for her behavior both at home and around others.Spanking and yelling is not in the plan. I will keep everyone updated as to our ongoing successes and failures. Once again the board comes through. Thanks to (almost) everyone for your insightful responses.

Kurt..

When I had my problems, this august group forgot its petty squabbles and gave me a lot of support. We may not have the answers, but we as a group, do care.

We will be waiting to see how things work out for you and your family.

Hi Kurt,
I have been reading the posts from others before giving any opinions. My kids are 1.5 and 4YO and although my wife is able to stay home with them, they are not without issues. I am pretty much set in my ways at 40 now so for us, I think the biggest change we made was to how I react and interact with my kids and my wife. We're normal people with stress and anxiety just everyone but the way we deal with it can have a big effect on our kids. Where before I would fly off the handle and raise my voice, lately(6months) I have tried very hard to not do that. I raise the volume of my voice when needed but it really has been a rare occasion. Usually at bedtime when the toys need to be cleaned up and they are tired.

I was a challenging kid, especially between 8 and 18. I loved my parents but got bored easily and that's when I got into trouble. I also used to get headaches and that would set me off. My Mom was the punisher because she was there during the day. If my Dad got involved, it usually meant it was serious although he never spanked us. I don't know if it was out of respect or not but I never wanted to disappoint him. Unfortunately, I didn't seem to care about disappointing my Mom. Don't get me wrong, we had a good, loving home. It's just that I was acting out, probably from frustration. We laugh about the stupid things I did now but I know I was a monster.

I don't know your family but there almost always is a back story as to why a child behaves unusually. I'm going to ask because I think it's important. You are a mixed race family?

Do you think there is a problem in reagards to that with her? Hopefully not but it may be as simple as her feelings about it. I'm not a pyschologist but I have been to counselers and being in management, training and classes on the emotions of people that this is now what I try to focus on when investigating a behavioral issue. (the back story, not a person's race. :) )

I wish you good luck in helping your family get through this tough time.

EDIT: Jeez, you guys concluded before I even finished typing.

Is listening part of your plan? Children are just little people. Children don't have the experience to have developed their communication skills, one of which is patience in getting their needs met. When children are not listened to they tend to act out and the more their needs are not being met the more egregious the behavior becomes.

Their is an old military axiom that once a plan is put into operation nothing goes according to plan. Or to put it another way the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray. So I wish you luck and hope everything works out OK.